4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Well... you may cut a B17's wing with 20mm fire from german planes, but this will require a Bf110, or a 190.

Like I said, taking off a B-17's wing with 20mm fire should be possible, but quite rare.

Perhaps there could be some sort of tracking mechanism in the game that would register how close various .50 caliber and 20mm hits are to each other and only trigger the most catastrophic effects in big planes if there are sufficient hits within a certain radius.

Originally Posted by RPS69

Self sealing tanks should work fine against machine guns, but against canons their efectiveness will be far less.

Self-sealing tanks were mostly designed to survive hits by shrapnel and single rifle caliber bullets. Also, they didn't seal instantly, so any hit to a fuel tank will result in some leakage. While it should be extremely rare, or even impossible, for a single flak fragment or .30 caliber/7.62 mm bullet to start a fire in a self-sealing fuel tank, a concentrated burst of fire from a .30 caliber MG, a few hits by a 0.50 caliber MG or even a single hit by a 20 mm gun should have the POTENTIAL to start a fire or unstoppable fuel leak. It shouldn't be a sure thing, but he risk should be there

Originally Posted by RPS69

One thing I will complain about bombers, it's the high life expectancy of gunners in ALL bombers.

I have to partially disagree. In comparison to an airplane a human is a small target, and for many gun positions the gunner was an even harder target because he was hidden behind armor or was seated, kneeling or crouching which made him a harder target. So, getting a solid hit on a gunner is quite tricky, especially at range.

But, what I've notice in IL2 playing in Arcade mode, is that the "instant kill" locations on a human figure in the game are tiny. To get a "pilot kill" or "crew killed" result you have to get a head shot - right through the middle of the head. To get a pilot wounded/crew wounded result, you have to hit the torso. I haven't yet figured out the parameters for arm or leg hits, but I think that they only are triggered by hits to the thigh or upper arm.

But, realistically, any hit by a .30 caliber fired from a MG through the neck or torso is likely to result in serious injury or death. Should the victim survive, they are also likely to have serious bleeding and are likely to quickly go into shock due to blood loss and pain. Functionally, that means they're dead, since they're out of combat.

While modeling effects of gunshot wounds is tricky, as a very rough model, the farther you get from the heart and spine, the longer the victim has to survive. If TD wanted to make crew more vulnerable, they could expand the "instant kill" area for .30 caliber bullets to cover the entire head, all of the neck, and line down the torso centered on the spine and extending about 15 cm to each side. While not all of these hits will result in an "instant kill" functionally, the effects are the same.

The exception is that there should be a small chance that rifle caliber bullet hits to the head not kill, but will result in unconsciousness for some period of time. This allows the game to model what happened to Saburo Sakai, and a few other extremely lucky but less famous pilots. But, if this option is implemented, the game would need to have some method of telling the player that the "black screen of death" just represents the pilot being knocked unconscious.

ANY hit by a .50 caliber or larger bullet is likely to render a crewman non-functional, and is almost certainly going to result in immediate death or severe bleeding which quickly leads to death. One of the reasons that .50 caliber is preferred for sniper rifles these days is because just about any hit is likely to result in fatal injury.

Likewise, it doesn't appear that gunners are rendered less effective by any sort of hit other than outright kills (although crew are vulnerable to bleeding. A few times, I've seen delayed "gunner down" messages when playing in arcade mode.) I hope I'm wrong, but it appears that the game engine ignores the effects of wounds to gunners, other than bleeding.

Were the game to properly model arm wounds to gunners, gunners manning hand-held guns would have a very difficult time moving their guns around or holding them steady following an arm hit. Gunners manning turret guns would have difficulty elevating, turning or firing their guns based on which hand was hit.

Leg hits wouldn't be as big a deal for gunners as for pilots, except:

1) gunners who have to stand or kneel to man their guns are effectively out of combat.

2) gunners who must use foot pedals to control a gun turret (e.g., the ball turret gunner on the B-17 or B-24) couldn't elevate or depress their guns.

3) Seated gunners who must use their legs to brace themselves in place would have a much more difficult time firing their guns.

So, Aviar's comment that Arnold Schwarzenegger, in his role as Terminator, is manning all the guns isn't far off the mark!

[Buster_Dee]

I just wanted to point out that the B-17 and B-24 Sperry ball turret pedals didn't control the turret in the way you suggest. The left pedal moved and was used to adjust range to target, as indicated by the site reticule changing in width. The gunner moved his left foot to adjust the "uprights" as needed to keep the target wingspan framed as the enemy got closer. That "told" the computing sight the rate of closure. Using hand grips, the gunner also kept the target framed laterally, "telling" the computing sight how the target was moving left-to-right, etc. The site also received own-aircraft altitude, own-aircraft speed, and it's elevation and azimuth position with respect to own-aircraft.

The right pedal was a footrest. However, some turrets had a back-up foot switch to fire the guns when failures forced the gunner to disengage the drives and crank the turret by hand. I don't think the Sperry ball had that.

[Pips]

I'd just like to hear of some news from the guys. The last time anything was posted was back in January - 6 months ago!

[Buster_Dee]

Pips, I wish I could give you something useful, but I'm just a modeler. Projects are alive and moving from what I can tell. The B-24D Monguse and I built seems in good shape now, but it requires some new tech due to the peculiarities of turbine-assisted supercharging and semi-automated mixture control found in US heavies. We had not crossed that bridge before. Computing gun and bomb sights have opened their own challenges.

Please bear with us.

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by Buster_Dee

Pips, The B-24D Monguse and I built seems in good shape now, but it requires some new tech due to the peculiarities of turbine-assisted supercharging and semi-automated mixture control found in US heavies. We had not crossed that bridge before. Computing gun and bomb sights have opened their own challenges.

Please bear with us.

Interesting, as the P 47, which we have had for a very long time, is also turbo-supercharged, and all late US aircraft have the "auto rich" and "auto lean" feature, as do many British aircraft.

I'm guessing this means they have been incorrectly modeled all along?

And thanks to you and Monguse for the tireless effort on that beautiful B 24.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Interesting, as the P 47, which we have had for a very long time, is also turbo-supercharged, and all late US aircraft have the "auto rich" and "auto lean" feature, as do many British aircraft.

I'm guessing this means they have been incorrectly modeled all along?

And thanks to you and Monguse for the tireless effort on that beautiful B 24.

Very good point. I wonder if any of this might have an impact on the P-38 or P-47 as well.

[Buster_Dee]

Shows you why I'm only a modeler lol. I don't think turbine supercharging was ever actually modeled (e.g., no axis for variable adjustment). I don't fly much, but I have the impression that Auto-Rich and Auto-Lean were never really done either. The advantages are high altitude and long range, neither of which is very appealing to the average player. On the other hand, Auto-Lean could really stretch a light fuel load, letting you carry more bombs--provided you know enough to avoid cooking the engines.

I need to get back to my paper airplanes. Lord knows I'm out of my depth here

[Royzewic]

Anybody know the release date? I know itis on the way, but do they know when they will give it to us?

[kennel]

Originally Posted by Royzewic

Anybody know the release date? I know itis on the way, but do they know when they will give it to us?

No idea we all need to be patient

[Janosch]

Anybody know the release date?

24th of June, said the little bird. No hurry.