Tales from online; ignorance of energy....

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

This is true and Icefire is also right in his last post there...

I remember one encounter online in full real. I was flying mustang in 1943 against fw190A.

After a some manouvering, I got onto fw's six.

Focke wulf simply thought he could dive away from me and he started diving quite rapidly.

I immediately dived after him, slowly getting closer to gun range

I was getting closer, then the focke wulf went into even deeper and deeper dive

After maybe 2km of diving, the ocean level was getting awfully close to the focke wulf. He crashed into the ocean like a comet or something

Focke wulf didn't respect mustang's better speed and dive capability, and he paid the price.

(I didn't get the kill in game server rules, but it was manouver kill in real life rules)

[MaxGunz]

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!

never say never

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

never say never

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

[Jumoschwanz]

A fight between two fighter aircraft is a complicated thing, sometimes your opponent will put some distance between you and sometimes they will not.

Sometimes they might be running away to go home, or very often they might just be getting room and energy to turn and zoom back at you and blow you to pieces.

Usually if someone gets away from me I will level off and fly at an angle off their flight path so I can keep an eye on them. If they want to go home fine, but if I see them zooming back up or at me, then I will turn back towards them to either take a shot or evade their attack. Either way by the time they get back to my altitude they have lost energy.


It is not uncommon for those with a classic advantage of some sort to end up being shot down anyway by some experienced opponent with an unexpected trick up their sleeve, I have been on both ends of that story.....!

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

A fight between two fighter aircraft is a complicated thing, sometimes your opponent will put some distance between you and sometimes they will not.

Sometimes they might be running away to go home, or very often they might just be getting room and energy to turn and zoom back at you and blow you to pieces.

Usually if someone gets away from me I will level off and fly at an angle off their flight path so I can keep an eye on them. If they want to go home fine, but if I see them zooming back up or at me, then I will turn back towards them to either take a shot or evade their attack. Either way by the time they get back to my altitude they have lost energy.


It is not uncommon for those with a classic advantage of some sort to end up being shot down anyway by some experienced opponent with an unexpected trick up their sleeve, I have been on both ends of that story.....!

EGGSACTLY.... I think this post should be a sticky for wannabees and know-it-alls

[Jumoschwanz]

I was in a relevant situation in the last few days. Flying a Fw190 on a map with lots of clouds, I was skimming the tops of the clouds as most of the action was close to ground level between fighters and ground attack aircraft. I wanted to be able to dive down, make shots and have enough E to escape into a cloud if I had to.

I got a MKVIII Spitfire down that was attacking a gaggle of Bf-110s, the Spitfire had two friends that turned onto my tail. I had some E on them and followed my plan and zoomed up through a large cloud, then I leveled out until I was able to loop back towards the two spits. They were smart enough to save enough energy so they could maintain control and turn out of the path of my attack. Because their energy level was close to mine and they were smart, I decided it was a bad ideal to keep looping with them one vs. two so I leveled out into very slight arcs away from them. They got bored and turned towards home, as I had dragged them far into my territory and they were probably low on fuel. I then turned back towards them with a lot of confidence to give chase using the clouds but unfortunately the map ended.

The MkVIII Spit is a pretty good matchup for a mid-war FW190. Being the pursuer is always a big advantage not only because it holds a high chance of offering some sort of shot at the target, but also because if the target decides to turn 180 degrees back towards you horizontally or as a Split S, then the energy it loses in doing so grants an instant advantage to you. So if you are being pursued then you really need to gain enough of a lead to execute a maneuver that will not only reverse your direction, but also preserve your energy and altitude.....

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

Eh it appears so that I misunderstood your second example completely?

Your first example I have heard of it being used in similar way as Robert Johnson did.

A fw190 sees a trailing spitfire in rear sector.

Fw190 makes maybe an initial gentle turn - sustained turn with rudder.

Spitfire adjusts his course slightly to follow

Then the fw190 rolls and adjusts his course slightly either to right or left (compared to his original straight course). FW190 has to try to minimize loss of speed in this manouver of course.

Spitfire cannot roll as fast obviously so he cannot mimic the movements exactly

spitfire has to make a turn of somekind (even a gentle turn) to keep following fw190 closely

Then the fw190 just keeps increasing distance patiently until he's comfortable

[MaxGunz]

Johnson in a P-47 had a contest with an unknown pilot in a Spitfire.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Johnson in a P-47 had a contest with an unknown pilot in a Spitfire.

This combat is described in Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat" and has been discussed on other threads on this forum (vis a vis the relative merits and performance of the P-47 series). Johnson was able to beat a Spitfire IX using a P-47C in a mock dogfight using Boom and Zoom tactics.

Fortunately, the AI behavior for IL2 is nicely models this encounter and usually uses good tactics. Set up a 1 vs. 1 head-on fight between a P-47D-10 vs. a Spitfire Mk IX in the QMB, at about 5000 meters of altitude, give the Spit pilot Average AI, give the P-47 Ace AI. Hit Autopilot as soon as the encounter starts, switch to some sort of external view and watch the fun.

Unless the Spitfire and the P-47 get a kill (or a double kill, or collide) during the head-on pass at the merge, usually the P-47 will be able to use energy tactics to get a kill on the Spit.