Announcement of the game "IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad"

[zapatista]

in comparison to the earlier RoF-BS cockpit screenshots, the early preview shots of the DCS-ww2 project's p47 cockpit look pretty amazing, the detail so sharp you can almost feel the textures of the cockpit and instruments. and yes, every dial, switch lever and instrument will actually work and have meaning

[Art-J]

Zap, You really start sounding like a broken record... You don't like the BoS project. Allright, yes, we get it, no need to repeat it on nearly every page of this thread, especially when most of Your posts are about the same things - some of them justified (e.g. worse gfx, simplified aspects of FM, controversial business model), some of them plain bull$hit (a bit about "people who mistakenly believe that that is what ww2 flying would be like", or a bit about "empty lifeless game world"). That just gets seriously boring, even quicker than "meaningless eyecandy". Seriously, If You're not interested in this project, why do You bother to post here in the first place?

Anyone, who is remotely interested in WWII sim biz, is fully aware of expected shortcomings and limitations of early version of upcoming BoS (after all, as You noticed, developers were not shy about these since the day one, which was widely commented on every effin' discussion forum for simmers out there). We all know that in some aspects it's going to be a step back from CloD and DCS. So what? "Meaningful" eyecandy and clickable cockpits of CloD and DCS are just a part of equation, important one, but not enough to keep players occupied for long. In the end, the only sim, which is going to become a long-term "industry standard" of flight simmers is the one which offers constant and stable development and expansion of functional offline and online features, done by official producers.

CloD is not going to become one, because without access to source code, there's only so much Team Fusion can do with it, no matter how ambitious and dedicated these guys are.

DCS WWII is highly unlikely going to become one, for reasons clear to anyone who has at least some experience with DCS series development pace (I'll be happy to see if anything changes in this aspect in the nearest future, but I'm not holding my breath for it).

That leaves us with BoS, whether we want it or not. There's a chance something reasonably good might come out of it. Personally, I'm not going to buy it now (have absolutely no interest in East Front, plus I really hate DLCs / microtransactions business model) but from my personal perspective - I'd say 777/1C project, simplified or not, is the only one which might bring me to my beloved Pacific Theater of Ops someday, while CloD and DCS most certainly will not.

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by Art-J

Zap, You really start sounding like a broken record... You don't like the BoS project. Allright, yes, we get it, no need to repeat it on nearly every page of this thread, especially when most of Your posts are about the same things - some of them justified (e.g. worse gfx, simplified aspects of FM, controversial business model), some of them plain bull$hit (a bit about "people who mistakenly believe that that is what ww2 flying would be like", or a bit about "empty lifeless game world"). That just gets seriously boring, even quicker than "meaningless eyecandy". Seriously, If You're not interested in this project, why do You bother to post here in the first place?

Anyone, who is remotely interested in WWII sim biz, is fully aware of expected shortcomings and limitations of early version of upcoming BoS (after all, as You noticed, developers were not shy about these since the day one, which was widely commented on every effin' discussion forum for simmers out there). We all know that in some aspects it's going to be a step back from CloD and DCS. So what? "Meaningful" eyecandy and clickable cockpits of CloD and DCS are just a part of equation, important one, but not enough to keep players occupied for long. In the end, the only sim, which is going to become a long-term "industry standard" of flight simmers is the one which offers constant and stable development and expansion of functional offline and online features, done by official producers.

CloD is not going to become one, because without access to source code, there's only so much Team Fusion can do with it, no matter how ambitious and dedicated these guys are.

DCS WWII is highly unlikely going to become one, for reasons clear to anyone who has at least some experience with DCS series development pace (I'll be happy to see if anything changes in this aspect in the nearest future, but I'm not holding my breath for it).

That leaves us with BoS, whether we want it or not. There's a chance something reasonably good might come out of it. Personally, I'm not going to buy it now (have absolutely no interest in East Front, plus I really hate DLCs / microtransactions business model) but from my personal perspective - I'd say 777/1C project, simplified or not, is the only one which might bring me to my beloved Pacific Theater of Ops someday, while CloD and DCS most certainly will not.

I'm enjoying BOS so far, its somewhere between the original IL-2 and COD. The aircraft takeoffs are easier than IL-2, but the landing are a little harder. The gunnery is quite easy, which will appeal to the broadest cross-section of the cfs community, but I haven't flown enough to see what the variables are in aircraft stability, hitboxes, and damage model that makes the gunnery easier. I believe BOS will evolve into a very popular combat flight sim.

Your wrong about COD, it will evolve quite nicely. Team Fusion are currently improving COD, building another theater, and adding more aircraft, ships, drivable vehicles etc. The community is building comprehensive missions, and campaigns, and the game engine can handle thousands of AI land, sea, air combat units. There is no doubt that a paid development crew would make things happen sooner, but COD doesn't need it as the sim appeals to a more hardcore, smaller subset of the combat flight sim community. I don't see the BOS/ROF game engine having any new feature that will kill COD. Most simmers will probably fly BOS, just as most simmers flew with relaxed settings in the IL-2 servers, while many will fly both sims, and the hardcore will have a home in the COD series of theaters for many years.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Chivas

I'm enjoying BOS so far, its somewhere between the original IL-2 and COD. The aircraft takeoffs are easier than IL-2, but the landing are a little harder. The gunnery is quite easy, which will appeal to the broadest cross-section of the cfs community, but I haven't flown enough to see what the variables are in aircraft stability, hitboxes, and damage model that makes the gunnery easier. I believe BOS will evolve into a very popular combat flight sim.

Your wrong about COD, it will evolve quite nicely. Team Fusion are currently improving COD, building another theater, and adding more aircraft, ships, drivable vehicles etc. The community is building comprehensive missions, and campaigns, and the game engine can handle thousands of AI land, sea, air combat units. There is no doubt that a paid development crew would make things happen sooner, but COD doesn't need it as the sim appeals to a more hardcore, smaller subset of the combat flight sim community. I don't see the BOS/ROF game engine having any new feature that will kill COD. Most simmers will probably fly BOS, just as most simmers flew with relaxed settings in the IL-2 servers, while many will fly both sims, and the hardcore will have a home in the COD series of theaters for many years.

Clod began a decline from being hard core with the very first patch. The final game is just a shell of its former self, and hardly hard core any longer. Due to community complaints the sim was dumbed down so that individuals could have better results.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Art-J

If You're not interested in this project, why do You bother to post here in the first place?

you might find it helpfull to check what forum you are posting in, it is a CoD forum

therefore you can by definition expect people here (the normal forum users, not the trolls) to be people who like and support CoD, and they will comment on other aviation games/sims (be they good or bad) from that perspective, if you find that context to compare other aviation games inconvenient then YOU are posting in the wrong place

Originally Posted by Art-J

In the end, the only sim, which is going to become a long-term "industry standard" of flight simmers is the one which offers constant and stable development and expansion of functional offline and online features, done by official producers.

wrong !

the "industry standard" has been, is, and will always be, the most realistic SIMULATOR of a ww2 pilots experience, and as such the RoF-BS project (by their own admission) wont be it. there are very few projects that set their aim that high, and CoD was very much created with that ambition.

now that the previews of RoF-BS are confirming its more arcade/console approach (pretty but empty scenery, nice looking aircraft but simplified damage models and lower resolution/detail cockpits and external plane models, elements like engine exhaust flames that are purely cosmetic but meaningless, easy gunnery model, simplified flight models, lack of more complex pilot tasks like engine management and fully clickable cokpit etc) , our best hope (as CoD supporters) clearly lies with the DCS-ww2 sim project which continues in the original il2-sturmovik design ethos.

and even on the release of DCS-ww2 in september 2014, there will be some time before it can equal the many new features and elements that already currently are in CoD. but at least it has the same ambition as the CoD creators (and the same designers of the old il2 series) and as such will still continue in the same ambitious direction. their intention is to evolve and even surpass CoD in most aspects and continue to create the most realistic flightsim possible (while the people who manage and work for the project make a living). THAT is a very different paradigm

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by zapatista

in short, RoF-BS will be a game for people

It's a game for people who want to refight a pointless real war instead of refighting a pointless forum war.

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by zapatista

looking at the feedback from the RoF-BS project flight-models, you can already conclude that simulation or realism of flightmodels wont be its strong point. as one early observer put it well recently "..... I've screwed up a couple of approaches (in RoF-BS) and still got her safely to the ground each time, the DCS-P-51 in comparison is a lot more finicky in such situations....."

I LOL'd when I read this. Landing an aircraft in CoD is laughably easy compared to BoS.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

I LOL'd when I read this. Landing an aircraft in CoD is laughably easy compared to BoS.

you seem easily amused, and as such would be the perfect customer for RoF-BS projects. just start saving your pennies from now on however, because going by their past track record RoF-BS aims to extract around 500$ for the privilege of entertaining you with their fun (but fictitious) aircraft game over the next 2 years

remember, that is also something RoF's rep's let slip shortly after their new project announcement, their aim is not to make something better then the last il2 series sim (CoD), it is their intention to make a game that is more financially profitable to them and their backers (and by its very design the content and features of their new game will be inferior to CoD on most aspects). and as such, neither is it designed to match or compete with complex sims like the DCS series that focus on recreating in the most realistic possible way a ww2 pilot's combat experience.

ahh, and btw you completely missed the meaning of my previous comment, i was comparing aircraft flight behavior in RoF-BS current project to the currently already available information on the next "real il2-sturmovik" installment which is the DCS ww2 sim project (of which the p51 is a part). and in the same way that the previous il2-sturmovik series set the standard in ww2 aviation sim's for the last 10 years, there are all indications that it will continue to do so for many more years in their next project

or were you maybe confused by the use of the "il2 sturmovik" brand name in the RoF-BS current game being developed ? it has NOTHING to do with the old series (it doesnt have the technical information from it, none of the code, none of the designers or researchers etc), and the use of the brand name is simply used as a marketing strategy by the company that owns the brand name to promote sales, it is NOT an actual content description of the product or the creators of the game/program

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by zapatista

you seem easily amused, and as such would be the perfect customer for RoF-BS projects. just start saving your pennies from now on however, because going by their past track record RoF-BS aims to extract around 500$ for the privilege of entertaining you with their fun (but fictitious) aircraft game over the next 2 years

remember, that is also something RoF's rep's let slip shortly after their new project announcement, their aim is not to make something better then the last il2 series sim (CoD), it is their intention to make a game that is more financially profitable to them and their backers (and by its very design the content and features of their new game will be inferior to CoD on most aspects). and as such, neither is it designed to match or compete with complex sims like the DCS series that focus on recreating in the most realistic possible way a ww2 pilot's combat experience.

ahh, and btw you completely missed the meaning of my previous comment, i was comparing aircraft flight behavior in RoF-BS current project to the currently already available information on the next "real il2-sturmovik" installment which is the DCS ww2 sim project (of which the p51 is a part). and in the same way that the previous il2-sturmovik series set the standard in ww2 aviation sim's for the last 10 years, there are all indications that it will continue to do so for many more years in their next project

or were you maybe confused by the use of the "il2 sturmovik" brand name in the RoF-BS current game being developed ? it has NOTHING to do with the old series (it doesnt have the technical information from it, none of the code, none of the designers or researchers etc), and the use of the brand name is simply used as a marketing strategy by the company that owns the brand name to promote sales, it is NOT an actual content description of the product or the creators of the game/program

I'm not confused at all. You're comparing BoS against the best features of every game you can think of, because comparing each game in their entirety does not work so well for you. Landing the aircraft for CoD is too easy? OK, you compare it to DCS instead. DCS has a non-historical map and only a single WW2 aircraft? OK, you compare CoD's aircraft set and map. DCS WW2 doesn't exist yet? OK, you compare to CoD's modded version. And so on.

When DCS WW2 is released I'll buy it. Hopefully it does not have anything as idiotic as CoD's Spitfire Girl.

BTW, you are starting to sound like you are seriously unhinged.

[Les]

The first of the new sims (COD, BoS, DCS) to put out realistic Pacific Theater carrier ops, wins, lol.

But seriously, and going off on a bit of a tangent here, with all the work that goes into maintaining a post IL-2:46 standard of flight model and graphics nowadays, I just don't think there's enough man hours available to cover as much ground as there was in the past. Not while still making a profit anyway.

At the same time, there's still a demand for different theaters of operation and plane-sets. What this says to me is, both/all sims need to focus on at least one map and plane-set for as many different theaters, as soon as possible.

The days of IL-2:'46 and COD style depictions of a huge variety of obscure planes is over, for the time being anyway. In my opinion, BoS and DCS need to focus on creating a diverse base of more limited environments and plane-sets and keep building from there over time.

Regardless of their individual pro's and cons in regards to flight models and graphics and other features (like mission building and multi-player), I think they both/all need to take a 'sample sim' approach to their content in the beginning. With a slower pace of development due to the added complexity of modern sims, they need to give people with an interest in a particular theater, and those who prefer a variety of theaters, something to do while they wait for the overall amount of planes and maps to increase.

It could be argued that kind of diversified approach would diminish the depth of the experience one could have in any one theater, due to the lower number of elements developed for it (initially). But how long would it take to get ten or more different kinds of planes and several maps for one theater of operations anyway? Better to get the whole community, with all it's different preferences, into the sim even at a more superficial level (content wise), than have them wait years just to see their preferred theater at all.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Oh, and if anyone out there is waiting/hoping for someone to make the perfect combat flight sim, forget it. They all have and have had their failings and flaws. You'd actually be better off taking a more wholistic approach by playing them all and just focussing on and remembering the best parts of all of them, that way you'd have the best overall combat flight sim experience, it just wouldn't be within the one program.