Yak-9T - incredible firepower (or maybe incredible tank's lack of armor?)

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

I disagree, decent non-penetrating hits can cause spalling of the inside surfaces of the armour.
7.62 is unlikely to "kill" a tank.

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

I didn't say that 7.62 would cause spalling.
But a projectile does not need to penetrate the armour to "kill" the tank.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

I disagree about spalling with 7.62mm on heavy tanks, it should do, as it apparently currently does, nothing.

It does nothing.
Other than entertain the crew inside with rain-like sound.
(proven, a relative of mine was a panther driver)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by swiss

It does nothing.
Other than entertain the crew inside with rain-like sound.
(proven, a relative of mine was a panther driver)

On most armored vehicles 7.62 mm or similar rounds does nothing, except for AP rounds against very light mild steel armor at close ranges. In a few cases, though, you might get spalling against slightly heavier armor, which might injure crewmen or damage very delicate components. Spalling is unlikely to do any damage to the drive train, engine block or gun, however.

Practically, shooting small caliber bullets at AFV does three things:

1) It allows you to aim your heavier guns. You shoot first with light caliber guns, observe where your bullets fall, then shoot with your heavier weapons - assuming they have roughly the same trajectory or you correct accordingly.

2) It forces AFV to remain "buttoned up" limiting the crew's visibility from inside the vehicle and preventing them from manning top-mounted AAA MG.

3) The rattle of bullets might "rattle" the crew. Inexperienced tank crews might retreat or maneuver defensively, on the assumption that all those bullets are just a precursor to something much worse. In some cases this is a valid assumption, since MG were sometimes used as ranging weapons for AT guns. This result could be built into a "mobility kill" option that makes tanks move defensively.

[bf-110]

I was wondering that the other day.How effective were air attacks against tanks.

Also I guess that some of the effectiveness was based on making the tank crew freaking out and leaving the tank?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by bf-110

I was wondering that the other day.How effective were air attacks against tanks.

Also I guess that some of the effectiveness was based on making the tank crew freaking out and leaving the tank?

There are some reports that you can dig for and dig up. The ultimate answer is that direct attacks against tanks weren't very effective at destroying actual tanks. Most rocket attacks didn't score the needed direct hits, bomb blasts were a similar story... what I have read is that IL-2s themselves were most effective against tanks when employing PTAB bombs. Initial reports were apparently not believed and additional field reports were conducted confirming their effectiveness. I haven't read the corroborating story but my understanding is that the PTAB bomblets were useful... the 37mm anti-tank cannons were less so. Similar story for the Stuka with the BK 3,7 where direct hits were effective but only from some angles on the heavier tanks. The massive 75mm gun on the Hs129B-3 and a Ju88 variant was found to be very effective, however, the recoil effects were immense.

That all said... attacks against tanks had secondary effects. Decreased morale, panic, etc. In Normandy the Thunderbolt and Typhoon attacks against tanks didn't destroy many but they reduced the overall effectiveness of whatever group was attacked. Also, air attacks against support vehicles that supplied the tanks were devastating. Destroying the fuel trucks that supplied the tanks caused no small impact.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by IceFire

In Normandy the Thunderbolt and Typhoon attacks against tanks didn't destroy many

I've seen a photo of a Panther said to have been knocked out by rocket firing aircraft, do you have sources for numbers?

[Torsteven]

Between 6 and 7% of German tanks were lost directly to air attacks during the Normandy campaign.

http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-...ers4.html#an_1

And for Panther:

The effect of Allied airpower is exaggerated to some extent. The direct effect seemed to be not that important. More effective would have been indirect effects, like the influence on tactical behaviour of the Germans and the interdiction of supply routes. From three British studies on Panther tanks found by British forces.

From 6 June 1944 till 16 January 1945 the “cause of death” was:
Armour piercing rounds: 63
Hollow charge projectiles: 8
HE rounds: 11
Aircraft rockets: 11
Aircraft cannon: 3
Destroyed by crew: 60
Abandoned: 43
Unknown: 24

http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=3625

So, the main threat to a tank was anti-tank gun !

P.S: Sorry for my poor English.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

That all said... attacks against tanks had secondary effects.

Like he said. One report that's reasonably easy to find with a Google search is a report on the relative effectiveness of rocket attacks by Typhoon fighter bombers on German tanks during the breakout from Normandy.

Don't get fooled by simple ballistics vs. armor penetration calculations, though. It's no secret that a relatively small-caliber cannon shell (like a 20 or 30 mm cannon) firing AP ammo could penetrate the top armor of even late war heavy tanks like the Panther, Tiger and Josef Stalin. Likewise, there's no dispute that if the shell hit in the right place its effects could be devastating.

Likewise, it's no contest that good hit by a rocket can also cause damage that could knock out a WW2 heavy tank.

So, hypothetically planes shooting 20 mm or 30 mm AP shells should be lethal to even the best-armored WW2 era tank. Case in point: Hans Ulrich Rudel.

The problem was that few pilots had the skill and suicidal courage to get close enough for their shots to hit and penetrate. If you look at gun camera films taken by ground attack aircraft, you'll notice that they are usually shooting from extreme distances and at extreme angles of attack relative to any vulnerable surfaces on the tank. This means that many shots miss, and that, of the shots that hit, many ricochet rather than penetrating.