Mitsubishi Stuka and Thunderbolt

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by JtD

Funny, considering the several thousand rounds spent, I would say a hit once in a while is statistically prone to happen. After all, firing solutions don't get a lot easier than with a dead 6 approach.

Alright, take 2% accuracy against a relatively non-maneuvering target as your baseline hit percentage overall. It's historically documented by several people on this forum.

Park your fighter at 4-5 o'clock or 7-8 o'clock off a bomber's beam at about 300-400 meters and fly in formation. Determine hit percentages from that. Anything much about 2% means that gunnery is too good.

Originally Posted by JtD

Can you prove it is theoretically impossible to hit an aircraft from 500-700 m away?

Of course not; the guns used were hypothetically accurate out to several miles, and lucky hits could happen at any range. But, as Horseback and I have been arguing, there were many factors that made that level of accuracy statistically highly unlikely. And, if you fly enough missions offline, the stats start to add up and they're historically wrong.

Originally Posted by JtD

Anyway, if I had killed twenty Betties within just 10 missions in 1 vs. 8 situations, for 8 hits into my aircraft in return, folks would probably want to know my secret, not the secret of some loser gunners.

That's not the point. You achieved your kills by hanging out at the extreme limits of effective range for any gun and used the superior stability of the Hellcat's guns to pick off some of the most flammable aircraft in the game. That's not a typical situation, nor is it realistic tactics, although it is a testament to some pretty impressive shooting on your part.

I'm more interested in what happens over dozens of missions where fighter pilots make more realistic attacks (pursuit curves, like I posted above) with their guns set at historic convergence distances (typically 300 meters for U.S. planes, although pairs of guns could be set to converge at different distances).

Due to a combination of inept AI bomber interception tactics and AI gunnery which is perhaps too good in some situations, I'm getting a situation where the gunnery accuracy by bombers is much better than it was historically. This makes it impossible for me to recreate very typical missions, such as late war German fighters intercepting U.S. heavy bombers.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by horseback

And separate the pilots from the gunners, if you want to maintain some sort of bombing accuracy.

Actually, there should be seven axes for crew skill:

Level Bombing
Dive Bombing
Torpedoes
Rockets/Ground Attack
Fixed Aerial Gunnery
Flexible Gunnery
Piloting

And, different crewmen should have different skill levels. For example, Ace tailgunner and Rookie ball gunner, or Average bombardier and Veteran pilot.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by JtD

Right, I guess 8 kills vs. 0 hits were too much of an argument to deal with, had to be avoided by starting some new "ace fighter AI is porked" red herring sideline. I take it the point now is that AI gunners mustn't hit anything even when faced with the most idiotic opposition. *facepalm* Nothing else to say, really.

That's NOT what I said.

I think that given the tactics used by the AI Hellcat in the 1 vs. 1 and 1 vs. 8 missions, the Japanese Ace gunnery is about right.

Rookie gunnery might be a bit too effective, however.

Gunnery might still be too effective at all levels when swinging a heavy gun - like a 20 mm cannon - while a plane is banking.

At least for Japanese gunners on the G4M1, they start shooting at extreme ranges - 1000 meters or greater.

I also previously said that hanging out at the limits of effective range for most air guns, even at 6 o'clock, and taking sniper shots is a good way to get lots of kills and minimal damage.

A better test of AI accuracy would be to take maneuvering shots from the rear quarter but within the effective range of the AI guns.

Originally Posted by JtD

Just out of curiosity - have you ever tried something bigger, like say 16 vs. 32 or something? Or is 1 vs. X the upper limit?

Yes.