Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.

It is a terrible idea. Maybe if its the last enemy then you can try. P-39 outturn you, outroll you, and they keep their energy better when maneuvering. Up to 5000m they are almost as fast as you, around 3000m they are even faster than you. Look it up in IL2COMPARE:
http://www.zg26.de/index.php?option=...ges&Itemid=135
Or try and fly P-39 in the Quick misson builder vs. Bf109. If you don't hamfist it - and keep it reasonably fast it is an absolute joy to fly. And its armament doesn't do damage -it destroys.

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.

The question is what do you want to achieve - survive the engagement at all costs -or shoot the enemy down at any cost. If you follow them for too long you will give away your energy advantage. You will slow down, and then, you will have no options left. If you turn -they can follow you, if you roll, they can follow you, and because you are slow, they can initially follow you in a climb or a dive and shoot at you.

Sure if you break soon enough, you will not always get a shot off - but you will learn in time where to shoot at an evading enemy.

You can try to dive even below the enemy, and then attack them with a speed advantage from below - sometimes they don't spot you.

But maybe it would be best for now if you would pick an easier enemy for now - either by setting the enemy to novice -or by not flying vs. P39. They are a very unforgiving enemy, as they leave you only the climb advantage (and the speed advantage high up).
Or fly at an earlier date - the G-2 or F-4 model of the 109 offer better performance than the G-6 -despite their earlier availability.

[Haklangr]

Thanks again, majorfailure; you've been extremely helpful. Heck, you're now the reason I'm still playing, really (see below!).

Well, I'm "good" enough to shoot down a couple enemy aircraft on most missions, now -- as long as my plane is as good as or better than the enemy's. I am, however, absolutely clueless as to how to improve vs. superior machines.

Or mostly-superior. The P-39 might not be superior to the Bf-109 (G6) in every respect, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to use the few advantages I do possess... namely, climb rate and better throttle performance at altitudes above 5000m. I cannot seem to use climb rate to get away after an attack run; I get shot down every time, no matter if I point my plane near-vertical or do a gentle climbing spiral. I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!

This leaves me only altitude. Well, I can avoid getting shot down if I refuse to go low, since they refuse to go high; I've been trying to lure them up there, but no dice. It's actually extremely frustrating to me; I nearly gave up on the game altogether, in fact. Just thinking about it makes me mad still, heh. (C'mon, they can out-roll and out-run me? Haklangr is not perfect?! *throws joystick*) How is this matchup possible unless P-39 makes a huge mistake?! I know some matches, one must just avoid, but I didn't think this was one of them.

But when I'm tired of tempting myocardial rage-infarctions, I take majorfailure's advice and have been trying out other Bf (and Fw) models and fighting other enemy aircraft... and it's back to being challenging, fun, and exciting.

[MaxGunz]

When you fly, are you keeping The Ball near or at center? If not, you can get more speed by doing that.

IRL you would feel when it's out (a pull to one side like when turning a car) which no sim gives. So you have to develop the habit of ruddering about enough but you can with flying practice. and spot checks on that black ball in the curved track for feedback on when you have it right. It has a minor to major effect on your speed and acceleration.

Another speed-factor is your elevator trim. Trimmed nose high, you will never get your full speed and your acceleration will suck. Trim changes with speed and power settings as it does IRL. When you want speed it's better to be trimmed a tiny bit nose down and have to pull back a teensy bit that to be trimmed nose up and have to push. But coming into tight turns you want just the opposite since you will slow down while turning and -need- more and more nose up trim!

And last for now is how hard you hold your stick (with appropriate low-humor jokes) and -not- resting the weight of your arm on the stick. In practice flight you don't need to shoot, what I was taught is to hold the stick with just 2 fingers and thumb to force myself to be a light touch on the controls. Not resting arm weight on the stick is a ***VERY*** hard habit to break. When I get it right, I maneuver much better! When I tire out and rest my hand on the stick I fly more sluggish, ham-handed.

I can't emphasize how important practicing just flying and perfecting your BCM's and ACM's and control habits is. Once you know your maneuvers well and have your habits tuned you will do better and find setting up tactics far easier.

If you could conquer this game in a month, that's all it would be worth and there wouldn't much community around it.

BTW, there are scenarios when it's stacked against you. For Russians it's worst in 41-42 and for Germans it's 44-45. If it's not the planes or lack of firepower (Early-war Russians, play as Germans first time through!) that gets you, it will be numbers. If you didn't have these, you would miss a major aspect of the historic war feeling of being the underdog.
If it gets you down then go practice flying and work on your speed and those maneuvers that failed you. Conquering maneuvers and your own habits isn't as satisfying as shooting a plane down but flying better has it's own rewards that will continue to pay past the next 100 shoot-downs.

[tota]

I enjoyed "In pursuit - A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat" by Johan Kylander a lot, you can find it on the net. Was an eye-opener for me ...

[Janosch]

G-2 has one major disadvantage... the canopy. Rearward visibility is awful. G-6 late version is a much better choice, and with the Mk108 it's a really fun plane to fly. Of course, the Mk108 is almost a mélee weapon (like a sword), and it may take some time getting used to, but it makes an awesome sound when fired!

Anyway, if one really wants to use a better plane, the best choice is the G-14. It has all the goodies: Erla canopy, the option for Mk108, MW50, decent performance and very, very stylish MG bumbs. The G-10 and such look snobbish and fake with their streamlined cowlings.

[MaxGunz]

About moderating speed, you might want to try an energy management approach. If you're flying too fast to make your best turn, the first thing you do is zoom climb until you've slowed to a bit over best turn speed and then do your turn on the same angle you're zooming up, flying a tilted-down loop. Once over the top you come back down, regaining the speed you stored as height in the zoom lost in the dive. You don't have to come out turned 180 either, you can roll-turn while headed up or down in the zoom or dive.

If you want to accelerate a highly wing-loaded plane (like FW) at low speed best, let it drop 50m-100m in a shallow descent while you pick up speed. The drop unloads the wings, you have less induced drag while you lose height.

Roll turn: You don't have to do a banked turn to change direction, even 180 deg. You just zoom up or down 30 deg or more and roll your canopy to point where you want to go then pull back smoothly to be on track. See how fast you can reverse, every other direction change is as fast or faster. It's the fastest way to change direction and it conserves energy.

So why play turn-fight with a slower plane that slow turn better than yours? Build up a speed advantage, turn it into zoom-height he can't reach and higher than he can point his guns and -then- maneuver to bounce once you have the upper hand.

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!

You bring up an important point, which most like to ignore, but one does end up in these situations and if you're not prepared for this - and all you get, is shot down.

So.. how does one prepare for this.. You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

You'll know when you have your man when his a/c starts wobbling or he runs away for 'advantage'

[JtD]

Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level, and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.

Mind you, the P-39 generally is very tough opposition for a 109G-6 in game. I tend to engage them only from an advantageous position, and then on my terms. Which usually involves high altitude spiral climbs. If I don't have the advantage, I'll come back with the advantage and if that's not possible, I just disengage. At sea level, it is possible to outrun all but the Q-10, so in case of emergency, I just dive for the deck and keep running.

[K_Freddie]

Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level,

That is true, but it's not the end..

and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.

As soon as you engage a slow, low turner.. you expose yourself as well.

My usual tactic is to ground hug, circling around a DF going on above.
If there is low level escape attempt (they do come down.. always).. I'm there shooting it up or shooting up the 'trailers' after a friendly. If I'm spotted and attacked, there is usually a friendly after my attacker. If it's 1-vs-1.. I'm practised in this type of flying - if my opponent is not.. they're dead meat.. or it's up to who has the best imagination.

If the DF above goes 'bottoms up'.. I warp factor outa there.. to low to be seen.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

So how hard can you turn at or very near stall speed?

Or is this advice you give to make your potential targets easy?