The so called "no-loss" concept (whole game) is wrong and stupid.

[Razorflame]

Originally Posted by tiberiu

Lol man, you're funny. Thanks for your well-thought and useful contribution. Yes, I admit, I'm very jealous on people who reload 50 times to be able to beat an invincible monster. Not.

I love how you assess my game. I'm a chessmaster and warcraft lvl 40 player, heroes 3,4,5 pro. You want 1v1 in any of these games? Tell me how noob and jealous I am after, not before.

Don't compare real life with a GAME, lol. KB is not meant to be realistic game.

"no respect for people who found those ways".

Dude, "found those ways" are you kidding me? What is there to find? You just cast Gift or Phantom on Inquisitors. And buy a few droids. And you can already quit the game because you WON. You are talking like abuzing exploits like hell is brain science. It's not.

Yes, I have no respect for NOOBS, because what Noobs do also affects the way games are done. And I like to play well-done games, not games done in such a manner that Noobs will enjoy.

sure will play homm vs u i play 3-4-5
and i never said u were noob

but a funny thing u note is that u say droids+inqisitor is free loss

what about the other ways people have found?

i find it quite amusing for u to say that u just name 1 STRAT lol

what about the people who beat the game with just 1 STACK?
or an undead army with no loss?
dragon army? level 5 army?
orc army?

There are alot of strats that involve no losses
you just name 1


because there is a big fact to KB
THERE IS NOT 1 SINGLE unit combination that is perfect! for ending the game

you can finish the game no losses with different combinations
there are plenty of options just for u to being find out

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by Razorflame

what about the people who beat the game with just 1 STACK?
or an undead army with no loss?
dragon army? level 5 army?
orc army?

There are alot of strats that involve no losses
you just name 1

I name 1 because it is the most common and the most overpowered of all. You keep talking about how "people have found" good strategies while missing my point. To the end of the game, you can use only 1 stack of peasants and do no loss on invincible enemies. That means peasants are good units? Nope it means some spells are absurdly overpowerd.

Forget 1 Stack, I'm pretty sure the game (excepting Boss fights maybe) can be done using single units. Of course there are many exploits. Like abusing Troll's regeneration at night. You can finish the whole game with a troll. Or with a Black Dragon. And this is a big turnoff for anybody who wants to play a challanging game. There simply isnt any difficulty to it.

Anybody can play the game as they like. But it's my right to point out that some thing are downright wrong. Thats what forums are for, everybody says what they think about a particular issue. My issue is that the game is too easy because of the said exploits.

Possible fixes would be to completly remove from the game the spells and abilities that allow such absurdities, and to better balance the creatures.

So I can name you not 1 but many such "strategies", better called cheap exploits. The most effective one in AP/CW is sending in Ghosts with exp. Stone Skin on them in the enemy and letting them go out of control. The game will consider them temporary enemies and as a result, you win lots of bonus XP for Pet Dragon. This might work in wotn too.

[Razorflame]

eh u call the troll a overpowered absurdity? but that has nothing do to with spells

then u name a ghost which can go out of control so the ghost is absurd too?

spells make the game easier or at least doable in some cases

try using boss fights without spells or rage
gl with that

and as a side note of all this

you don't have to use those spells
or go for a no loss

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by Razorflame

then u name a ghost which can go out of control so the ghost is absurd too?

Is absurd in combination with stone skin. (90 to 95% phisical damage reduction) - most creeps are phisical.

try using boss fights without spells or rage
gl with that

Son, you can't use rage in boss fights.

you don't have to use those spells or go for a no loss

Simply saying "you don't have to do this" is a fine way to avoid the issue. Regardless of what I do, the issues still remain, some gameplay of KB is stupid.

@ Tororo try harder

[Fatt_Shade]

Who said that no loss game takes 2 hours per battle ?
1 of interesting no loss builds all ranged 100% crit army every battle takes 3-4 turns max (killed Baal in 3 turns, finished in 5th because needed to block Gilbert units from killing last stack of imps all in all 5 minute battle max), with maybe 1 turn to revive units because almost every hit your units make is 20K+ dmg, and if you go orc build goblins could go more then 1 action per turn(unstoppable talent) and get ridiculous amount of dmg.
Getting to your goal army can be challenging but it`s mostly 1/3 of game time.
Or human army+royal griffin +3 moral to all, and paladins for 2turn, archmage magic shield to horseman + warrior counterstrike, inquisitor mainly is there to look pretty and cast holy rage in undead battles. mage with all summoning army or all dragon army with voice of dragon +3 moral, high 80+ intellect mage with 20000 dmg black hole per turn . . .
If there is only 1 way to beat this game impossible no loss it could be called bug or exploit, but there is lost of them and that is just the way game is made. No loss builds are noticable because in previous game players commented on them most, and lost of game strategies came from those forum treads.
If most of talk about game were like this : Tread called `I dont know how to cast spells` and then 100+ replies from players explaining how to upgrade some magic school then open spell book, and then upgrade some scroll in to spell . . .
Some experienced players would come and laugh and call them all noobs. Now there is lots of talking about no loss plays and you come along and bitch about it, so game needs to be changed drastically to be acceptable for you. i just dont see it being done.
It is solo player game and every rule you decide will hold, until it get some multiplayer mode when we could start screaming on eachother online. But till then , chill and play or dont , your choice.

[amyndris]

I find that for about 90% of the fights, a generic Phantom/Paladin, Death Knight/Evilkin/Unlimited Counter item or Droid^2 can no loss your way through.

But for certain fights, it really makes you get creative. A good example was one of the spider fights in KBAP where I ended up nolossing it by delaying and filling up the entire grid with droids so the boss couldn't spawn more spiders and wearing him down. Is that cheap? Maybe. But at the same time, you really get to think of ways to defeat the encounter on your terms; it becomes a puzzle game as opposed to a combat game which is more interesting to me anyways.

Even finding uses for rare spells like Sacrifice and Peacefulness (and the Peace Pipe) was part of the no-loss game. You had to view all the spells, units and items as a toolkit and find the right tool to no loss the game. Is it more challenging than fighting normally? No it's not, on the tactical level, but it's more engaging on the strategic level.

Think of it this way. Regular playthough is about "picking a lock" to get inside the door. No-Loss playthrough is about finding the key. Different goals, different challenges. Neither is better than the other, they just appeal to people with different interests.

[BB Shockwave]

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

I'd rather try playing the game with an all-Elf army, or an all-Undead one, etc. I did a no-loss on AP with an all-Lizardman army+Warrior - but only on normal, using Resurrection spell/Time Back only. I have no desire to do it on Impossible, where the game would make me use the same old, same old tactics (Phantom+Paladin for example) over and over in every battle, often for 40+ turns. It is... mind-numbing and boring. This way, each battle was different, and I got to experience the Lizardman units and learn their strenghts and weaknesses. (Apart from the Chosa, I love them all...)

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

It wasn't really necessary to use a ress unit, you could also use spells. The all dragon army worked pretty well, and target + timeback was also very strong. I think the most boring run I did was one where I used the repair droids to the extreme... so not fun.

There isn't any pressure to do no loss in the game. Rather it's fun to see how extreme you can be. And each fight becomes an even more complex puzzle to figure out. One of my favorites was the dragon den on Montero in AP. You could do the fight with like 2 or 3 red and green dragons (killing a few dozen other dragons). Figuring out the right combinations of spells and gear to make impossibly difficult fights, possible, is a huge part of the fun for me.

This is why truly overpowered units (rune mages) and lack of options decreases my enjoyment of the game.

[Kel]

Originally Posted by tiberiu

Anybody can play the game as they like. But it's my right to point out that some thing are downright wrong. Thats what forums are for, everybody says what they think about a particular issue. My issue is that the game is too easy because of the said exploits.

Simply don't use this "exploits". The game is single player only, so unit balance and spell balance does not matter at all. If someone has fun beating hagni with level 15 in 200 turns, so be it, who cares?

I like the many options in KB and reducing them wouldn't make the game necessarily harder. Sure, you could remove all abilities that make no loss even possible, but would the game then be harder? Is Heroes of Might and Magic a challenging game - i don't think so.