Pilot kill after pilot kill. How do they do it??

[BadAim]

I love all this talk of cheating. I have been flying online for several years and have never seen anything that I consider cheating. Maybe that's because I wouldn't consider cheating? Hmmmmmm.

[AbortedMan]

Same here BadAim, especially in a simulator, but people are strange.

It's be foolish to assume there are no cheats in an online game, in what is essentially an uncontrolled environment (coding-wise) such as Cliffs of Dover.

I've seen cheaters in ArmA2 cooperative missions, even...a game that's about the activity of teamwork, not kills.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

An acknowledged expert on Weapons in general, and Air to Air weapons specifically is Anthony Williams, who has been published multiple times and has a website here:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/miltech.htm

On the site is an article which deals specifically with the armament of the different sides in the Battle of Britain, and which goes into detail on the effectiveness of these weapons.

There is ZERO mention of tungsten cored 7.92mm ammunition being readily available. The article does mention the 20mm M-Geschoss round.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

An analysis of the effectiveness of the British 7.7mm and German 7.92mm rounds shows them as similar in armour penetration.

A British study during the same period found the effectiveness of these light MG rounds in penetrating pilot armour was poor:

From Mr. Williams article:

Tests by the RAF indicated that both the .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of the relatively small and light Blenheim bomber. Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results were poor; only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it. In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.

No mention of tungsten core bullets ripping through pilot armour there.

Wikipedia in reference 7.92mm AP rounds notes:

The most common type of armor-piercing round had a hardened-steel core with plated-steel jacket and weighed 11.5 grams (177 gr). Other types appeared which used tungsten carbide and combinations for cores.

No indication as to when tungsten rounds were available, and clear indication those which may have had tungsten in the core were rare.

For the Germans to have been given unlimited numbers of 'magic bullets' is clearly wrong.

But just another one of the many botched aspects of this Sim.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

No indication as to when tungsten rounds were available, and clear indication those which may have had tungsten in the core were rare.

For the Germans to have been given unlimited numbers of 'magic bullets' is clearly wrong.

But just another one of the many botched aspects of this Sim.

So what you're saying is, your source gives no concrete info. The most you can infer from your quoted passage is that the tungsten-carbide rounds were less common than the standard hardened steel AP rounds.

Cool, thanks for editorializing it as a magic bullet.

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

So what you're saying is, your source gives no concrete info. The most you can infer from your quoted passage is that the tungsten-carbide rounds were less common than the standard hardened steel AP rounds.

Cool, thanks for editorializing it as a magic bullet.

In any case, whether that ammunition was effective/available or not does not give solid evidence that it was correctly modeled as such in the game...and still doesn't give an explanation as to why/how certain pilots are able to hit ONLY the pilot from 200m+.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

In any case, whether that ammunition was effective/available or not does not give solid evidence that it was correctly modeled as such in the game...and still doesn't give an explanation as to why/how certain pilots are able to hit ONLY the pilot from 200m+.

You have 2 choices:

1)Prove that they're ONLY hitting the pilot from 200m+

2)Stop talking

If you can't prove it, you're just another noob getting his wings clipped online, crying about cheats rather than learning to fly. So, once again, prove it or shut up.

Have you considered the possiblity that these guys are just really good, and you're just really bad?

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

You have 2 choices:

1)Prove that they're ONLY hitting the pilot from 200m+

2)Stop talking

If you can't prove it, you're just another noob getting his wings clipped online, crying about cheats rather than learning to fly. So, once again, prove it or shut up.

Have you considered the possiblity that these guys are just really good, and you're just really bad?

You're a wonderful human being with fantastic qualities and deserve to be loved like anyone else.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

You're a wonderful human being with fantastic qualities and deserve to be loved like anyone else.

I'll interpret that as you choosing option #2.

I applaud you for choosing not to continue smearing the names of good pilots simply because they are better than you, as it would seem some participants in this thread are content to do, despite not having a shred of evidence.

I personally find the "he killed me, he must be cheating" attitude to be just as pathetic as cheating itself.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

So what you're saying is, your source gives no concrete info. The most you can infer from your quoted passage is that the tungsten-carbide rounds were less common than the standard hardened steel AP rounds.

Cool, thanks for editorializing it as a magic bullet.

Salute

You obviously didn't bother reading my entire set of posts, or perhaps you decided to ignore the content.

1. I have quoted a British test which used captured German ammunition loadouts, and which shows 1% penetration of pilot armour, and makes no mention of special tungsten rounds.

2. I have linked to Anthony Williams article on the Battle of Britain, which deals with the ammunition used by either side, and which makes no mention of Tungsten cored rounds.

3. I quoted from the Wiki article, which notes only at some point tungsten rounds were built, but also they were not common, and doesn't give a time frame.

4. I have pointed out the Germans implemented as quickly as possible, a policy of converting from 7.92 mm wing weapons to the 20 mm FF, why would this policy be in place if the 7.92mm was as effective as it seems to be in the game?

I think it is up to you actually to prove these rounds were in general use during the BoB, available in large quantities, and had the penetrative abilities which seem to be in effect in the game.

To suggest that a round which has the same propellant charge would have suddenly the capability to automatically penetrate the same armour which only 99% of the standard German AP rounds, with the same propellant could not, could seems to me to call for proof.

Right now you are arguing for their inclusion when it's clear their effectiveness runs contrary to all the available facts.

All you have done in your reply is to show you have nothing in way of substantive proof to argue for their inclusion in the game.

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

You obviously didn't bother reading my entire set of posts, or perhaps you decided to ignore the content.

1. I have quoted a British test which used captured German ammunition loadouts, and which shows 1% penetration of pilot armour, and makes no mention of special tungsten rounds.

2. I have linked to Anthony Williams article on the Battle of Britain, which deals with the ammunition used by either side, and which makes no mention of Tungsten cored rounds.

3. I quoted from the Wiki article, which notes only at some point tungsten rounds were built, but also they were not common, and doesn't give a time frame.

4. I have pointed out the Germans implemented as quickly as possible, a policy of converting from 7.92 mm wing weapons to the 20 mm FF, why would this policy be in place if the 7.92mm was as effective as it seems to be in the game?

I think it is up to you actually to prove these rounds were in general use during the BoB, available in large quantities, and had the penetrative abilities which seem to be in effect in the game.

To suggest that a round which has the same propellant charge would have suddenly the capability to automatically penetrate the same armour which only 99% of the standard German AP rounds, with the same propellant could not, could seems to me to call for proof.

Right now you are arguing for their inclusion when it's clear their effectiveness runs contrary to all the available facts.

All you have done in your reply is to show you have nothing in way of substantive proof to argue for their inclusion in the game.

Uhh, I mean this in the politest of ways, but I think you're losing track of what the OP is about...and I'm not sure why the historical effectiveness and availability of the tungsten AP round is being brought to attention. I'm willing to bet money that the ballistics are far (FAR) from modeled correctly in-game. So comparing historical tests is not a valid comparison to in-game effects, IMO.

(In no way am I supporting Doggles narrow-minded, tl;dr-esque comment or taking his side, btw.)