|
|
|||||||
| IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer Maddox Games. |
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
|
#1
10-15-2012, 12:22 PM
|
|||
|
|||
S!
Could really use some more info on conf.ini on the settings..or the devs could just make the UI use them instead of trial and error we have now. Any decent UI in games has both basic and advanced settings that control the MOST used and featured items in the graphics. Only those HC guys tweak more but as a normal user you should not need this..AT ALL! 
|
|
#2
10-15-2012, 01:16 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
now that CoD has become playable for many of us in the last few months, it is clear there is a major problem in CoD with distant aircraft/ground-object (like tank/truck) spotting as there was in the il2 series. it is important to try and fix this because for a "ww2 pilot simulator" to be able to have correct visual spotting/identification/tracking distances for these distant objects (crucial in a dogfight or hunting for ground targets), otherwise you end up flying in a myopic mini-bubble of SA. for ex in il2 series you needed to fly at 300 m from the ground to try and spot a tank/truck, yet ww2 reports from pilots doing ground attack state they could spot enemy tanks in open fields or on roads from 1000 to 1250 meters, that difference is HUGE compared to our visibility problems in il2/CoD
note: to get a real sense of the degree of the visibility problem, you need to set your CoD/il2 monitor to the correct FoV setting for the size monitor you have and the distance you sit from it (which in CoD we cant directly adjust, but in il2 series we could). eg using a "zoomed" view is not an excuse/reason to pretend we have correct visibility, you never heard of a hurricane or typhoon pilot using a pair of binoculars while diving in on a ground target (or having one strapped to his helmet). there have been several threads over the years (including in this forum) discussing that in great detail, the facts are fairly simple. for ex the "normal" view we now have (70 FoV) is only normal (ie "correct") if you have a 30' monitor you sit at arms length from, if you use that on a 24' or 20' screen all distant objects will look MUCH smaller (by about 30 - 50%). using the zoomed 35 FoV migh partially overcome that (but will zoom in to much and hence magnify things) but gives a very tunnel vision perspective of the game and is not solution either for obvious reasons. - the reason i mention this is because if you want to truly solve the distant LoD model visibility problem, for a start your FoV needs to be setup correctly for your monitor size, and only then will all ingame objects be represented 1:1 in their correct sizes once FoV is set correctly, our problem is that : - we are using a flat 2 dimensional monitor that tries to represent a small distant 3 dimensional object which moves (or is stationary) against a flat 2D scenery, and it blends in with the background scenery and there is no difference in "depth of focus" or 3D our eyes can work with (as the OP described int he first post of this thread) - the distant LoD model is under ideal viewing conditions (for ex from directly above or in front) shaped as a coherent cluster of pixels that still represents the shape of the aircraft, BUT if you see it at a slightly different angle (since both you and it are moving) in most circumstances that little cluster of pixels will become jumbled and less coherent and will loose the shape of the aircraft it represents, making it MUCH harder to keep track of (it might have gone from 12 black pixels in the rough shape of an aircraft, to being 3 black pixels in one blob with a few grey ones around it and a couple of other "unattached" black pixels). easier to understand with a screenshot, will try and post one later - some LoD models might stand out reasonably well against open blue sky, but the same LoD model usually becomes completely invisible against a terrain background (where in RL it would still be MUCH easier to spot). so what we need is instead a "visual representation" (modified LoD model concept) that stays visible against the terrain background more, but doesnt become to glaringly ugly and prominent when the same LoD model is seen against open blue sky some possible solutions discussed in previous years: - make all the smaller LoD models much darker (or a bright blue ?) so they stand out more (instead of sing a paint scheme that aims to represent the real color of the object it represents) - give the smaller LoD models "3D volume" by using something like bump mapping, so they stand out more against the scenery background - paint the smaller most distant LoD models in "non realistic" colors so they stand out more (or use some highlighting method around the edge of the shape, as the OP suggests) - instead of focusing on having distant very small LoD models maintaining the shape of the aircraft they represent (which is done very poorly anyway because our smallest pixels arnt small enough to give that level of detail), use instead a "blob" or fixed larger number of black/grey pixels of some shape that makes the object stand out a bit more and overcome the problem we have of using a 2D screen. once you come closer to it, or use the zoom function, the larger LoD models would still keep the shape of the object of course. note: there is one important variable in people reporting their degree of "distant object visibility" in CoD/il2. in the past, those that had the least problems identifying distant objects were those using the cheapest gaming monitors. these cheap gaming panels are usually TN technology and are 6 bit color (compared to most mid range and better quality panels being 8 bit color and using MVA/PVA or IPS technology). - because these 6 bit panels are very poor at representing a large gradient in grey scales and color tones, a small moving distant object (which due to constant lighting changes on that object, is constantly slightly changing in tone/brightness/color) is very hard for these panels to recreate in great detail and display these subtle variations, so they have to constantly flip between different steps in the shades of grey (an 8 bit monitor has more "steps" and can display a greater range of shades of grey and color tones, so it is a much smoother transition). the more gross these "steps" in the 6 bit panels in trying to display the small cluster of pixels representing the distant little aircraft LoD model painted in grey/color, this results in a "flickering" that makes the moving object stand out much more against its background (for the same reason these 6 bit screens are bad at representing a uniform black/grey background in movies, where this flickering is very noticeable once you know what to look for) i would suggest that people who claim not to have a significant visibility problem state 1) the field of view (FoV) they are using, and DONT use a zoomed view (because it is like using binoculars) 2) state the brand/model of screen they use 3) then compare object visibility to what it would be like as seen in a similar real life situation
__________________
President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 10-17-2012 at 06:23 AM.
|
|
#3
10-15-2012, 01:33 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
I'm not sure that there is a problem with the game itself. I just turned on icon to find the distance I was viewing perfectly fine without the icons on. It turned out to be 1.96 Spit1 the furthest we were separated in this test (so is'nt that 2000 yards), and I had no problem tracking the dot itself. In fact as the AI was positioning for a landing, his wings would clearly show against the darker terrain. I think its very important that if a pilot looses contact, to then look where it should be and it will be picked up again...in short it does not disappear, at least with off-line.
__________________
 GigaByteBoard...64bit...FX 4300 3.8, G. Skill sniper 1866 32GB, EVGA GTX 660 ti 3gb, Raptor 64mb cache, Planar 120Hz 2ms, CH controls, Tir5 Last edited by SlipBall; 10-15-2012 at 02:05 PM.
|
|
#4
10-15-2012, 01:59 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Turn off FXAA if you are using it. I couldn't spot dots for crap till I turned it off. Post processed anti-aliasing will filter out 1px dots pretty easily.
I actually kind of like the how planes get camouflaged against the background, it just takes a lot more practice to spot planes. My strategy is to move a little, pause my head, and scan the WHOLE screen with only my eyes moving, then move on to the next section of the sky. Kind of like a robot. When your head is not moving and your eyes focus on one area of the screen, it's much easier to pick out moving objects.
|
|
#5
10-15-2012, 02:16 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
i looked up the monitor listed in your spec list, and altho panel technology is not a perfect predictor, it has been shown in the past that is a major variable. you personally will have significantly less problems spotting dots and distant small LoD models, because the monitor you are using is 6 bit color and has the "advantages" (in il2) that i mentioned earlier Planar SA 2311W = 6bit TN panel (http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors...-34512572.html) also make sure you are not using a zoomed view when trying to spot/track or identify distant objects (for the purposes of our discussion here)
__________________
President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 10-15-2012 at 02:54 PM.
|
|
#6
10-15-2012, 02:21 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
OK Zap thanks, I thought everyone was blind for a minute 
__________________
GigaByteBoard...64bit...FX 4300 3.8, G. Skill sniper 1866 32GB, EVGA GTX 660 ti 3gb, Raptor 64mb cache, Planar 120Hz 2ms, CH controls, Tir5
|
|
#7
10-15-2012, 02:47 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
last yr i made a detailed post on the 6 bit versus 8 bit lcd monitor issue, found here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...6&postcount=58
its a summary of what was extensively discussed in some of the main il2 forums in previous yrs, and this issue was only identified as a significant variable after many yrs of having some people claim they had no problems spotting dots/lod's, when under exactly the same conditions (even with playing a track of the same event) some others could not see anything. credit goes to the others who helped identify this 
__________________
President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 10-15-2012 at 02:52 PM.
|
|
#8
10-15-2012, 03:15 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
from a previous post i made in this forum a couple of yrs ago. my humble apology for another text wall, but since it is a complex issue we all aim to get resolved, the technical detail in the variables involved does matter
A Basic description of the visibility problem for distant aircraft in the il2/CoD sim series: I: For those who havnt yet seen how the LoD (level of detail) models work in il2 first, you have the close up detailed external view of an aircraft, it shows it in all its glory but also takes a huge amount of cpu/gpu power to display. - this detailed visual representation will stay the same up to a certain distance (a 100 meters + ?) where the aircraft just becomes smaller and more distant second, at some fixed distance from the viewer the more distant aircraft will then transition to a LoD model which keeps the rough shape of the aircraft, but gives much less visual detailed information (since you cant see it anyway, and would be a waste of cpu/gpu power to keep drawing it)required) third, at an even further away distance this previous LoD model will transition to another even smaller and more rudimentary one, it will only have the rough outline of the aircraft it represent (single or multi engine etc) fourth, at the furthest away distance (usually somewhere between 1000 and 5000 meters depending on how big the aircraft is) that last LoD model will transition to the "il2 Dot". when you are flying as a fighter pilot and expect other enemy fighters in your area, being able to see these "Dot's" from a realistic real life distance is extremely important. eg, if in real life you might be able to spot (and then track) a moving dot somewhere 2000 meters below you, you'd hope this would be accurately represented in the il2 sim series (but this sadly is not the case up untill now) these 3 shots show the 3 LoD models for the p40 in il2 (for some reason the animated gif wont work on this forum) the problem this currently creates, aside from some of the errors in some of the LoD models themselves (like the 2e LoD model of the seafire in il2 series having no wings, making it much harder to detect), is that these smaller LoD models are just little clusters of flat little 2D pixles sliding over a 2 dimensional flat image of the distant terrain scenery that your pc already struggles to make look like a real landscape so problem 1: that distant little p40 might well be the right size, but on computer screens it is MUCH harder to spot (and keep track of) then a real life because it "blends in more" with whatever is displayed behind it. in real life the 3 dimensional little object stands out against the background more (as understood in modern neuroscience, the human eye through millions of years of evolution is very good at tracking those real life little objects in the distance) the good news: -more Lod models are now provided in CoD/SoW series, which means a finer transition and potentially more distant viewing distance before it transitions to the small "dot" sadly we now see in CoD this is not a solution in the way the Lod models are currently painted/displayed. the new method of representing distant aircraft/tanks/trucks is better, but its visibility implementation is not. - oleg seemed to understand this problem when repeatedly put to him, and there were indications (from early preview video's) that he might have implemented the "little 3D blob" method to make them stand out a bit more in CoD (a bump mapped little blob would take much less computing power, and would visually more closely represents an object the human eye can detect and track on a flat 2D computer screen. the bad news: sadly there was no sign of this new implementation method in the final release. in some of the CoD preview video's released earlier the distant dots of bomber formations on the screen looked like small individual water droplets rather then the previous flat pixel clusters. this would mean the distant object keeps its volume and visibility much more and stands out from the background more on our pc screens, and imho it could have been an elegant solution to trying to represent a distant aircraft on current 2D pc display technology (which has by its very nature significant limitations in representing distant 3 dimensional objects). problem 2: for the smaller LoD models, the little cluster of pixels that roughly keeps the shape of the intended aircraft, ONLY DOES SO FROM CERTAIN ANGLES, ie it depends what part of the aircraft you are looking at. from many viewpoints this cluster of pixels will fragment and break up, completely loosing the shape of any aircraft it might have been, making it 50x harder to keep track of ! as an example: this is a distant view of the smallest LoD model for the earlier p40 example now if you look at a screenshot of a flight of four i-16's heading in your direction (from a similar distance as the last smalles p40 LoD model in the previous illustration), you can clearly see that only one of them looks vaguely like a "plane" (yet it is a formation of 4 planes flying together), the others which are immediatly adjecent to the first one are just seen from a slightly different angle, but have now just become an erratic irregular group of pixels, AND those drawings constantly change shape depending on the view angle ! so instead of seeing a solid "aircraft looking pixel group" coming your way, in the il2/CoD game series you catch intermittent glimpses of a jumbled shape of loose pixels coming your way instead (and this is against open blue sky), but this is NOT the case in real life when it stays a solid object (because your eye resolution is higher then your pc display resolution, eg look at Mac's newer screens claiming "retina" high resolution (bit of a market gimmick, but you get the idea). Now if you put this in front of the complex shaped and colored "ground terrain" textured background, the human eye simply cannot track this irregular moving cluster of loose single pixels, due to the lack of well defined shape to visually "lock on". You can intermittently reacquire the target when it changes to something more visible as it comes closer and transitions to a larger LOD's, but in a combat situation where both aircraft are doing 300 km/hr and are rapidly closing (or he is trying to sneak up on you) this is not "simulating" what a real pilot would/could see, and therefore doesnt allow realistic combat engagements because you situational awareness bubble has shrunk to 30% of what it should be. II: one important issue is that when the smallest LoD model transitions to the "il2 dot" this is an example of the "3e LoD to Dot transition point", when the il2 sim series represents very distant small aircraft shapes with a "dot" (either 4 pixel clump, or 2 pixel clump) for the b17 and its wide wingspan, it transitions to a "4 pixel dot" at around 5 km (for a small single engine fighter this lod to dot transition point is much closer, somewhere between 1000 and 2000 meters). as you can see from the illustration, one moment you have a vague representation of an aircraft shape, the next it is just a little dot (this is done to save cpu/gpu power) - the problem we have is that these 4 (or 2, or 1) pixels might well represent the right size for the distant aircraft, but as illustrated earlier for the smallest LoD models in a 2011 pc game these 4, 2, or 1 dot sizes are not visually identified to the same extent on a pc monitor as they would be visible in real life. so these smallest pixel clumps DO need an enhanced visibility feature as well to make them stand out more (and it needs to be a solution that is equally valid for 6 or 8 bit monitors, so we dont have a repeat of the MAJOR problem this created in il2) For the il2 "dot visibility" however there are no indications this has been solved for BoB-SoW !! we had in il2-4.08 a "4 pixel dot" representing a very distant aircraft (ie, a distant one that has become smaller then the 3e LoD model), and the game keeps this 4 pixel dot as the smallest representation of the distant aircraft (untill it suddenly completely vanishes at a specific distance). some indications are that in 4.09 this 4 pixel dot was now drawn even smaller as a 2 pixel dot, and from one of luthier's recent comments in BoB-SoW the game engine will even give further more distant visibility and at greatest distances an aircraft will be represented by a single pixel. the dot issue is however somewhat less serious in CoD because the greater amount of LoD models allows (presumably) more accurate distant drawing of very small objects note: this situation is not helped by the fact that not many il2 users know exactly what a "real life distant aircraft" should look like when seen from a ww2 fighter plane cockpit, and some well meaning (but ignorant) posters will raise unrelated reasons like "but the plane has camouflage paint so you cant see it" note 2: any discussion on this topic with il2 users is further complicated by the fact that 6 bit monitor users have a much less severe dot spotting problem, because of the inferior ability of their monitors to represent grey shades, these grey/black dots stand out much more and they might be able to see them 2 or 3x better then most other users (an additional factor is that many pc users dont have callibrated monitors, and il2 players dont use a standardized amount of AA and AF on their gfx cards). so not all il2 users are aware of how severe this problem is. conclusion: some in game enhancements need to be used to make distant aircraft (and ground targets) stand out more and deal with the fact we are looking at a 2D monior rather then looking out a window in real life, so these ingame objects are more visible (and able to be tracked) from similar distances as they were for real life ww2 pilots (and this is needed for both distant small LoD models and the "il2 dots"). currently il2 and CoD has 30% of this visibility we should have, and we fly around in a myopic mini bubble of visibility which completely distorts what your normal situational awareness should be. this problem is the most significant issue in what makes the il2 series a "simulator", and needs to be addressed as a matter of priority for BoB-SoW
__________________
President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 10-16-2012 at 01:54 AM.
|
|
#9
10-15-2012, 03:35 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
zapatista, waiting for any changes from the team may take awhile. Why not just buy a Planar SA 2311W, if I remember right it, was only 220.- or so.
__________________
GigaByteBoard...64bit...FX 4300 3.8, G. Skill sniper 1866 32GB, EVGA GTX 660 ti 3gb, Raptor 64mb cache, Planar 120Hz 2ms, CH controls, Tir5
|
|
#10
10-15-2012, 03:41 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
i, and most people here, also use their pc setup for a whole host of other purposes, and reducing quality has other flow on effects. i agree with you however that for people buying a new monitor for il2/CoD, this is something they should maybe consider. but then again we also need to advise those people to set their monitors to lower resolutions so dots and LoD models stand out more (and distort their color setups, a well calibrated monitor is again a potential disadvantage) or instead luthier could fix the dot/LoD visibility issue, and we can all enjoy the glory of the new CoD scenery in its greatest beauty possible, as well as our hardware will allow i prefer option b) btw, using a 6 bit monitor doesnt really "solve" the issue, it just makes it significantly easier to spot a small moving dot (eg il2/CoD distant aircraft) against a static terrain scenery. even with that "glitter artifact" present under those conditions it still doesnt provide correct viewing/spotting/tracking/identification distances in CoD. for ex just try and fly over an airfield at 1250 meters and look down to see if you can spot static parked small aircraft or see individual vehicles driving around, i bet you cant (dont use a zoomed view, use a correct FoV for your monitor size only !!). yet in real life you could/can, that's the issue. its just that during these debates a small group of people has *less* of an issue with this, and that is where the 6 bit monitors come in
__________________
President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 10-17-2012 at 06:26 AM.
|
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
