Energy Maneuverability

[JG14_Josf]

Il-2 enthusiast & Moderator

Please, moderator, let me know if your displeasure is such that you prefer that I do not continue any further discussion on this topic or on this forum for that matter.

I prefer not to be involved in forums where the moderators contribute to Flame wars.

[JG14_Josf]

This flight sim, at the current state, is miles away off target in terms of a.)transparency and b.)historic performance of flight models.

335th_GRAthos,

The concept of documenting the actual game performance concerning those plots that go on those charts so as to then accurately know where the current state of the flight model is and then to accurately know what is changed in the flight model is specifically demanded as my intended interest with this topic on Energy Maneuverability.

I failed to make that clear within the context of the first initial volley.

I may not be employing English very well.

If it can be known as to...

I can borrow again:

Cornering Speed: "The lowest air speed at which a fighter can obtain the structural or aerodynamic limiting G force."

In the "dogfight" situation, this is the speed I'm trying to maintain in order to "out-turn" an adversary. It's also the speed above which I must excercise caution to prevent "Over-G" damage. Below this speed I must remain "Stall vigilant.

Is there a central location where the cornering speeds of CLoD aircraft can be found?

If that can be known now, then any changes can be known later.

I hope that I can address this:

This flight sim, at the current state, is miles away off target in terms of a.)transparency

I prefer to address that before addressing this:

and b.)historic performance of flight models.

The question asked, if you please, could be answered, and I'm not begging the question, I am merely asking you personally, please, and thanks for the welcome, please engage in the discussion on the topic by entertaining an answer to the question concerning Plane A (Sustained turn) and Plane B (Diving in at Corner Speed), and which plane turns a smaller radius at a faster rate, and there can be three levels of answers relevant to the game and to this topic.

Assuming a 5 g pilot limit.

1.
The answer is provided by the 109 and Spitfire EM Charts, which are not superimposed one on top of the other. (WWII vintage?)

2.
The answer is provided by the Mig and F86 Chart, which has one plane superimposed on the other plane. (possible flight test data plotted onto that chart by John Boyd and Chuck Yeager concerning a captured Mig).

3.
The answer is provided by game flight tests. (I don't even know yet if the game offers usable information recorded in replay files).

Again addressing this:

This flight sim, at the current state, is miles away off target in terms of a.)transparency and b.)

Having in-game data, if it is accurate (repeatable from one computer to the next and from one test pilot to the next and from one test flight to the next or by average of many test flights), there can be a mathematical determination of which planes, which pilots, are blacking out at which g loads.

Note: In IL2 it became obvious that some planes were modeled to generate higher g loads and therefore that program was thereby able to vary Instantaneous turn performance for those planes so modeled relative to the planes that were not modeled with pilots that were not capable of sustaining as much g force.

Someone might ask me, or ask themselves, how can it be possible for someone to know if the game models the same g load for each plane?

That is the same point, the same question, as this Topic intends to answer.

If someone were to have two computer side by side and one pilot is turning the same diving turn as the other pilot, both pilots are following the highest performance downward spiraling turn, and one pilot is no where near black out while the other pilot is obviously being limited by black out, and both planes are nose to tail in the diving turn, what do you think that proves?

If you care to engage in the discussion: please consider answering the question.

I know for a fact that the IL2 game became widely variable in which planes were modeled with higher or lower g loads, depending upon which "mod" was being modded by whoever figured out how to alter that variable.

I know for a fact that I had asked many times on those IL2 forums if the game modeled the same g load for each pilot and as far as my memory goes I think the official answer was that the pilot g load was 5 g for every pilot flying every plane. That was later proven to be untrue, but the cause of the variations are probably attributable to modifications done to the original program.

How important is it to have a 1 g advantage in modeling for your pilot when you fly your plane against an opponent where the opponent is flying with 1 g less tolerance in g load; where your opponent is fighting against black out, right in front of you, and you ask him on Teamspeak, and the opponent confirms on Teamspeak, "I am fighting black out", and you in your plane can merely pull back on the stick, no black out, pull lead, start shooting, score hits, and so, again, how important is it to know if your plane, and your pilot can tolerate the same g force, more g force, or less g force, and how important is that information compared to which plane can go 5 km/h faster on the deck, or which plane can maintain 1 g more in a luffberry circle or sustained turn at a constant altitude?

I'm asking, and I think I am asking nicely, and already the moderator is starting a flame war?

What is up with that?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Please, moderator, let me know if your displeasure is such that you prefer that I do not continue any further discussion on this topic or on this forum for that matter.

I prefer not to be involved in forums where the moderators contribute to Flame wars.

Hi

Welcome

Please ignore the trolling members, they are well known, and most posts have been removed already.

Try to keep upbeat as some of the usual suspects have already tried to "upset" the thread with thier usual agenda, keep on topic and have fun.

Try to get as much stick time as you can with CoD, you will find though as you "master" one aircraft, a patch will come along and change all that, sound familiar (old IL2 series) ?


As already stated in CoD structural G and its penalties are not modelled, only blackouts and elevator authorities are limiting factors.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

As already stated in CoD structural G and its penalties are not modelled, only blackouts and elevator authorities are limiting factors.

Wrong.

Airframes bend in RL and when stressed they bend in IL2COD. I hope you don't think 46's wings flying off is how it happens in real life? Perhaps you could tell us what sim has structural G's modeled right? I'd like to play it.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

Wrong.
Airframes bend in RL and when stressed they bend in IL2COD.

And the penalty for that damage in CoD is ?

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

I hope you don't think 46's wings flying off is how it happens in real life?

I've never personally seen a WW2 aircraft pushed past its flight envelope to cause a structural failure, so I have no idea what happens.

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

Perhaps you could tell us what sim has structural G's modeled right? I'd like to play it.

Find a sim that has any parameter modelled right and I will fly it.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

And the penalty for that damage in CoD is ?


I've never personally seen a WW2 aircraft pushed past its flight envelope to cause a structural failure, so I have no idea what happens.



Find a sim that has any parameter modelled right and I will fly it.

Perhaps you could actually go fly the game you are a moderator for and find out for yourself what happens when an airframe is bent. The game has it modeled closer to any WWII sim ever made.

Still waiting on your answer to what game has structural G-limits modeled correctly. It sure seemed a heck of a lot like you were talking about 46 (which is normal for you). It's pretty bad you think that's right though lol.

Just a hint: There's been many instances, especially with modern jets of structural G stress way past their limits and the airframe damage that occurs.

Can anyone tell me why my post keeps getting deleted?

[MadBlaster]

i wasn't trolling. my answer gave consideration that g meter wasn't available to use in the CLOD poo software and also put blackouts as a side issue by making it moot/inactive in the test I described. so, the focus would be on the elevator limitation and because it is at sea level, the energy from gravity is moot/rulled out in the test I described, as well. I also considered in my answer that in rl, the only data you have available to make a determination of energy fighter verses angles fighter is the information you have from inside your cockpit (i.e, your gauges) and your observation of your opponent. the op's quest to find the exact performance numbers is moot. in 1v1 situation, you only need to know if you are the angles or the energy fighter. that can change, simply based on opponent loadout, altitude differential...etc. maybe op has way to measure fuel load of his opponent at the merge??? use the force??? su26 shooting blue laser, x tie fighter style? maybe in clod poo software you can do this? good luck luke.

[Osprey]

It's all very sad.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by Osprey

It's all very sad.

Osprey - we have a thread going on our forums about this. We're going to get something going to have him removed. I've never seen such poor excuse for moderation in my life. We will be in contact with the site leaders of 1C. I know many others that feel the same way.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

KG26_Alpha is a fine moderator - he simply deleted troll posts that have nothing to do with the thread topic.

So what if you don't like - who are you again?

Wotan