Game Hurricane is 534 lbs overweight

[JtD]

We're not on the same page here.

L 2026 was equipped with a early production windscreen and armour plating over the fuselage fuel tank. In this configuration it was tested at a flying weight of 6316 lb.

In addition to this, the aircraft was ballasted an extra 434 lb in accordance with an Air Ministry letter, to be tested at overload condition of 6750 lb.

So, no - armoured glass was not fitted on the aircraft. Some sort of fuel tank protection was, but this has nothing to do with the extra 434 lb, as it already was installed.
Question - why do you think 434 lb is meant to simulate armour upgrades? Is that an assumption or do you have more background information?

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by JtD

We're not on the same page here.

L 2026 was equipped with a early production windscreen and armour plating over the fuselage fuel tank. In this configuration it was tested at a flying weight of 6316 lb.

In addition to this, the aircraft was ballasted an extra 434 lb in accordance with an Air Ministry letter, to be tested at overload condition of 6750 lb.

So, no - armoured glass was not fitted on the aircraft. Some sort of fuel tank protection was, but this has nothing to do with the extra 434 lb, as it already was installed.
Question - why do you think 434 lb is meant to simulate armour upgrades? Is that an assumption or do you have more background information?

Salute

Just trying to determine facts here JtD...

I am not sure if you have more information, not suggesting you are incorrect, I had assumed the reference to the windscreen was to an bulletproof glass one, why else would they mention it, and the fact it was flush? The original bulletproof windscreens were fitted to the outside and protruded.

Not sure about the 434 lbs, did make the assumption it had to do with the armour planned to be added, not sure your assumption the aircraft weighed 6316 with the armour is correct, the weigh chart listed on Mike Williams site, (his adaption of the original) is not clear.

I am going to consult a copy of Morgan and Shacklady's book in next day or so to see if they can shed some light on the situation.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

I am not sure if you have more information, not suggesting you are incorrect, I had assumed the reference to the windscreen was to an bulletproof glass one, why else would they mention it, and the fact it was flush? The original bulletproof windscreens were fitted to the outside and protruded.

And I think because these bullet proof windshields were around, they found it necessary to mention that this was not installed on this aircraft. They also state that it is only the fuel tank armour that is different to L1547, which they tested earlier, and L1547 definitely had no armoured windscreen, as can be seen in the picture on the site. Also, the "early production" type windscreen as such was not armoured, and flush. To my knowledge, the Hurricane was never equipped with flush armoured windscreens, but then I might just not have seen it, yet.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by JtD

And I think because these bullet proof windshields were around, they found it necessary to mention that this was not installed on this aircraft. They also state that it is only the fuel tank armour that is different to L1547, which they tested earlier, and L1547 definitely had no armoured windscreen, as can be seen in the picture on the site. Also, the "early production" type windscreen as such was not armoured, and flush. To my knowledge, the Hurricane was never equipped with flush armoured windscreens, but then I might just not have seen it, yet.

If the 434 lbs additional weight added has nothing to do with the actual weights of bullet proof glass and armour plate over the fuel tanks and behind the pilot, then what is the actual weight we should be looking at for a Rotol equipped Hurricane IA? You mentioned 6793 lbs as an upper end for a Hurricane I, but for a BoB aircraft, any info?

[JtD]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

If the 434 lbs additional weight added has nothing to do with the actual weights of bullet proof glass and armour plate over the fuel tanks and behind the pilot, then what is the actual weight we should be looking at for a Rotol equipped Hurricane IA? You mentioned 6793 lbs as an upper end for a Hurricane I, but for a BoB aircraft, any info?

I don't know what the 6750 lb are meant to represent, but it is not completely out of the way as later figures show.

I think the L 2026 is representative for BoB condition without bullet proof windscreen and rear armour plate, i.e. an early BoB version with constant speed prop, and when it's fully fueled up, you're at 6445 lb. Addition of armour and other minor equipment might have added maybe ~150 lb over the course of the year. So I perceive 6445 lb as the lower limit and 6600lb as the upper limit for that period, which puts 3311 kg from in game well out of the reasonable range, no matter which service condition it is meant to represent.

Thanks klem for posting figures on the Hurricane armour plate. Where did you find this info?

[klem]

Originally Posted by JtD

I don't know what the 6750 lb are meant to represent, but it is not completely out of the way as later figures show.

I think the L 2026 is representative for BoB condition without bullet proof windscreen and rear armour plate, i.e. an early BoB version with constant speed prop, and when it's fully fueled up, you're at 6445 lb. Addition of armour and other minor equipment might have added maybe ~150 lb over the course of the year. So I perceive 6445 lb as the lower limit and 6600lb as the upper limit for that period, which puts 3311 kg from in game well out of the reasonable range, no matter which service condition it is meant to represent.

Thanks klem for posting figures on the Hurricane armour plate. Where did you find this info?

Not the best of sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane_variants
"From about May 1940 70 pounds of armour plate protection was added in the form of head and back armour."

Actually I think the specific 73lbs was the Spitfire armour
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-I.html
"N.3171 weighed in at 6,050 lbs. The 73 lb. pilot's armour found on more mature Spitfire Is was lacking."
But they would have been very similar. Some of the armour plate appears to be present in the Hurricane MkI we have in the Museum and which was recovered from a hole in the ground in Hove (near Brighton). Flown by Dennis Noble out of Tangmere, 30th August 1940.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

For the second time, please keep the posts to the issue at hand, ie. the weights of the aircraft.

[Kwiatek]

Here is Hurricane MK1 data. Max take of weight is 6793 lbs (3081 kg). So everything above these in CLOD is just wrong.




I checked difference between SPit MK1 (without pilot armour plate) and MK II (with pilot armour plate):

P.7280 ( MK II) - 6172 lb. (2800 kg)
N.3171 ( MK I) - 6050 lb. (2744kg)

..This aeroplane ( MK II) was fitted with a bullet-proof windscreen, armour plating over the petrol tank and externally, apart from the radiator, was similar to the Rotol Spitfire I, N.3171, previously tested at this establishment. The radiator of P.7280 is of the Morris type and tests were called for to determine the suitability of this radiator under tropical conditions. Internally, one difference between this aeroplane and N.3171 has been the fitting of armour plating behind the pilot in the Spitfire II. Generally, any change in performance or handling can be attributed to the change in engine and radiator alone. "

So Spitfire MK1 with aditional pilot armour should have take off weight ab. 6123 lbs ( + 73 lbs armour) - 2777kg