Thoughts about Friday's update

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

I have the "Wick vs Dundas" Campaign(s) by Desastersoft which I consider to be an excellent product -- it's what Cliffs of Dover SHOULD have shipped with as part of its own package. Unfortunately, and this is no fault of Desastersoft, the CoD AI and Comms really suck, as we all know, which greatly affects gameplay. If -- a BIG "if" -- the devs can fix these two glaring aspects, then offline play will be very good.

I tried the demo, and was unimpressed straight away that the spit they had in the missions was the Dunkirk 2 stage as opposed to CSP during BoB.

Is this different in the actual paid campaign, or is it still wrong?

[Continu0]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

I tried the demo, and was unimpressed straight away that the spit they had in the missions was the Dunkirk 2 stage as opposed to CSP during BoB.

Is this different in the actual paid campaign, or is it still wrong?

I have little knowledge what is right or wrong, nor do I know if they use the 2-stage-spit in the paid-version.

But if you can back up your facts with a valid source, they will listen to you and change it. Yes, their support is that good...

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Continu0

I have little knowledge what is right or wrong, nor do I know if they use the 2-stage-spit in the paid-version.

But if you can back up your facts with a valid source, they will listen to you and change it. Yes, their support is that good...

The 2 stage was changed after Dunkirk and before July, its documented all over the place.

yes i can back it up with valid sources.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

I tried the demo, and was unimpressed straight away that the spit they had in the missions was the Dunkirk 2 stage as opposed to CSP during BoB.

Is this different in the actual paid campaign, or is it still wrong?

No, you're right. Actually, I just flew that mission yesterday -- it is the 2-speed Mark 1 that's used. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Spitfire squadrons hadn't yet been retrofitted by May, 1940, with the CS props (DH or Rotol? Can't remember offhand which was field mounted and which was factory-installed later). IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

Re-reading Alex Henshaw's "Sigh for a Merlin". Early on he mentions that the BoB pilots quickly discovered that the 2-speed prop pitch lever could be carefully manipulated at the center of travel to adjust the prop's pitch between Full Fine and Full Coarse -- which gave huge obvious advantages in performance if done skillfully. This was strictly variable pitch though, NOT Constant Speed. Neither DH nor Rolls Royce countenanced this, fearing serious damage to engine and/or prop governor -- but neither Company's reps were in the cockpit with the pilot at 20 angels with a 109 on their six! This aspect is not modelled in CoD, but IS modelled in A2A's Wings of Power 3 Spitfire 1a.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

No, you're right. Actually, I just flew that mission yesterday -- it is the 2-speed Mark 1 that's used. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Spitfire squadrons hadn't yet been retrofitted by May, 1940, with the CS props (DH or Rotol? Can't remember offhand which was field mounted and which was factory-installed later). IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

Re-reading Alex Henshaw's "Sigh for a Merlin". Early on he mentions that the BoB pilots quickly discovered that the 2-speed prop pitch lever could be carefully manipulated at the center of travel to adjust the prop's pitch between Full Fine and Full Coarse -- which gave huge obvious advantages in performance if done skillfully. This was strictly variable pitch though, NOT Constant Speed. Neither DH nor Rolls Royce countenanced this, fearing serious damage to engine and/or prop governor -- but neither Company's reps were in the cockpit with the pilot at 20 angels with a 109 on their six! This aspect is not modelled in CoD, but IS modelled in A2A's Wings of Power 3 Spitfire 1a.

It is correct that during Dunkirk it should be 2 stage, but between the end of BoF and BoB DH fitted CSP's in the field, it was one of the few times that something was actually done quickly, and is well documented in both Alfred Prices "The Spitfire Story",
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Sto.../dp/1854095145
and also in the even more encompassing work, Morgan and Shackladys "Spitfire the History" (a must read for all things Spitfire, look in the library or buy if you can)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-His.../dp/0946219486

Unlike the fitting of metal ailerons, which took and age for them to finally do from when it was recommended (during bob, fitted may ish 1941 iirc)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks for the info, Fruitbat.

I have Dr. Price's books in my collection, and have added Morgan and Shacklady's to my Amazon.ca "wishlist". At $215 CDN this is a serious book at a serious price! LOL But Christmas is coming......

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Thanks for the info, Fruitbat.

I have Dr. Price's books in my collection, and have added Morgan and Shacklady's to my Amazon.ca "wishlist". At $215 CDN this is a serious book at a serious price! LOL But Christmas is coming......

I know its bloody expensive, i keep ordering it out of the library!

on the plus side it is a bloody big book, with every single modification to spitfires that was done listed along with all serial numbers of spits and where they went squadron wise amongst other things.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Fruitbat wrote:

"Unlike the fitting of metal ailerons, which took and age for them to finally do from when it was recommended (during bob, fitted may ish 1941 iirc)"

A major issue, to be sure, which ISN'T modelled in CoD (I think Kurfurst issued a BugTracker report -- the Spitfire rolls 4x too fast in a 400 mph IAS dive IIRC. Of course, in CoD the Spit loses its ailerons at 420 IAS, so that kinda looks after that! LOL). I remember reading Douglas Bader "jumped the queue" and stepped on a lot of toes to make sure his planes got outfitted with metal ailerons first. Lovable he may not have been, but he did get results! LOL

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Fruitbat wrote:

"Unlike the fitting of metal ailerons, which took and age for them to finally do from when it was recommended (during bob, fitted may ish 1941 iirc)"

A major issue, to be sure, which ISN'T modelled in CoD (I think Kurfurst issued a BugTracker report -- the Spitfire rolls 4x too fast in a 400 mph IAS dive IIRC. Of course, in CoD the Spit loses its ailerons at 420 IAS, so that kinda looks after that! LOL). I remember reading Douglas Bader "jumped the queue" and stepped on a lot of toes to make sure his planes got outfitted with metal ailerons first. Lovable he may not have been, but he did get results! LOL

best bit about that story, is that after Bader had been shot down, and Johnie Johnson was in charge, he got a visit from some angry official asking who had authorised it!

[klem]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

....................IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

................

That rang a bit of a bell with me as I've lost count of the times I've read Al Deere's book (Nine Lives). Here, from the book but abbreviated for space....

May 23rd 1940. A usual patrol at dawn, the 12th for the week, returned without incident and 74 Sqdn took over the patrol and were jumped. Their CO force landed near Calais Marck with engine trouble. Then, just before 9 a.m. Al Deere and Johnny Allen were asked to escort a Miles Master to Calais Marck for a rescue attempt. Long story short, Al Deere and Johnny Allen shot down 3 109s out of a group of about 12. Notably the 109s were turning, presumably at odds of 12:2 they thought they had an easy fight on their hands.

Al Deere drew two conclusions from this fight. One was that the 109s (presumably E's) were not able to outclimb or out-turn the Spitfire (we know of course that initial energy states could make the climb issue true and this was only his first combat). The other conclusion was that "The superior rate of climb was, however, due mostly to the type of Spitfire with which my Squadron was now equipped. Aircraft of 54 Squadron were fitted with the Rotol constant speed airscrew on which we had been doing trials when the fighting started." [presumably the German invasion of France] "Other Spitfires were, at that stage, using a two speed airscrew (ie. either fully fine ptich or fully coarse) which meant they lost performance in a sustained climb....."