Thoughts about Friday's update

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Continu0

I have little knowledge what is right or wrong, nor do I know if they use the 2-stage-spit in the paid-version.

But if you can back up your facts with a valid source, they will listen to you and change it. Yes, their support is that good...

The 2 stage was changed after Dunkirk and before July, its documented all over the place.

yes i can back it up with valid sources.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

I tried the demo, and was unimpressed straight away that the spit they had in the missions was the Dunkirk 2 stage as opposed to CSP during BoB.

Is this different in the actual paid campaign, or is it still wrong?

No, you're right. Actually, I just flew that mission yesterday -- it is the 2-speed Mark 1 that's used. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Spitfire squadrons hadn't yet been retrofitted by May, 1940, with the CS props (DH or Rotol? Can't remember offhand which was field mounted and which was factory-installed later). IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

Re-reading Alex Henshaw's "Sigh for a Merlin". Early on he mentions that the BoB pilots quickly discovered that the 2-speed prop pitch lever could be carefully manipulated at the center of travel to adjust the prop's pitch between Full Fine and Full Coarse -- which gave huge obvious advantages in performance if done skillfully. This was strictly variable pitch though, NOT Constant Speed. Neither DH nor Rolls Royce countenanced this, fearing serious damage to engine and/or prop governor -- but neither Company's reps were in the cockpit with the pilot at 20 angels with a 109 on their six! This aspect is not modelled in CoD, but IS modelled in A2A's Wings of Power 3 Spitfire 1a.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

No, you're right. Actually, I just flew that mission yesterday -- it is the 2-speed Mark 1 that's used. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Spitfire squadrons hadn't yet been retrofitted by May, 1940, with the CS props (DH or Rotol? Can't remember offhand which was field mounted and which was factory-installed later). IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

Re-reading Alex Henshaw's "Sigh for a Merlin". Early on he mentions that the BoB pilots quickly discovered that the 2-speed prop pitch lever could be carefully manipulated at the center of travel to adjust the prop's pitch between Full Fine and Full Coarse -- which gave huge obvious advantages in performance if done skillfully. This was strictly variable pitch though, NOT Constant Speed. Neither DH nor Rolls Royce countenanced this, fearing serious damage to engine and/or prop governor -- but neither Company's reps were in the cockpit with the pilot at 20 angels with a 109 on their six! This aspect is not modelled in CoD, but IS modelled in A2A's Wings of Power 3 Spitfire 1a.

It is correct that during Dunkirk it should be 2 stage, but between the end of BoF and BoB DH fitted CSP's in the field, it was one of the few times that something was actually done quickly, and is well documented in both Alfred Prices "The Spitfire Story",
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Sto.../dp/1854095145
and also in the even more encompassing work, Morgan and Shackladys "Spitfire the History" (a must read for all things Spitfire, look in the library or buy if you can)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-His.../dp/0946219486

Unlike the fitting of metal ailerons, which took and age for them to finally do from when it was recommended (during bob, fitted may ish 1941 iirc)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks for the info, Fruitbat.

I have Dr. Price's books in my collection, and have added Morgan and Shacklady's to my Amazon.ca "wishlist". At $215 CDN this is a serious book at a serious price! LOL But Christmas is coming......

[klem]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

....................IIRC Al Deere of 54 Squadron flew a Dunkirk mission in a Mark 1 with 2-speed prop (and got shot down and had to take a boat home with the evacuees).

................

That rang a bit of a bell with me as I've lost count of the times I've read Al Deere's book (Nine Lives). Here, from the book but abbreviated for space....

May 23rd 1940. A usual patrol at dawn, the 12th for the week, returned without incident and 74 Sqdn took over the patrol and were jumped. Their CO force landed near Calais Marck with engine trouble. Then, just before 9 a.m. Al Deere and Johnny Allen were asked to escort a Miles Master to Calais Marck for a rescue attempt. Long story short, Al Deere and Johnny Allen shot down 3 109s out of a group of about 12. Notably the 109s were turning, presumably at odds of 12:2 they thought they had an easy fight on their hands.

Al Deere drew two conclusions from this fight. One was that the 109s (presumably E's) were not able to outclimb or out-turn the Spitfire (we know of course that initial energy states could make the climb issue true and this was only his first combat). The other conclusion was that "The superior rate of climb was, however, due mostly to the type of Spitfire with which my Squadron was now equipped. Aircraft of 54 Squadron were fitted with the Rotol constant speed airscrew on which we had been doing trials when the fighting started." [presumably the German invasion of France] "Other Spitfires were, at that stage, using a two speed airscrew (ie. either fully fine ptich or fully coarse) which meant they lost performance in a sustained climb....."

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks, Klem. Ooops, he HAD the Rotol CSP after all. My bad! LOL

I have no excuse, I have the softcover version of "Nine Lives" on my shelf. I first read that book in 1963. Spotted the hardcover version in the tiny church library one Sunday -- seemed a far more interesting read to a nine-year-old boy than the usual tomes a church library would stock. Couldn't put it down, reread it a thousand times (guess I didn't retain much, though. ). Back then I would've been flabbergasted with what a home PC and peripherals could do using a title like Cliffs of Dover forty-nine years later. Then again, so would the RAF! LOL

[Mysticpuma]

Originally Posted by BlackSix "This is my fault. I should collect 5-10 old questions and send them to Ilya. But I made new threads and I collected over 200 questions. I don't know when he'll find time for this."

Honestly B6 if that's the best that can be done it's just opening this thread up to the harbingers of doom. Sadly I believe I have become one

You offered us after (MANY) months the chance to actual actually get answers to the many issues that have been raised. The community again was sparked into life! At-last, a chance to get some actual, proper input from the devs.

What do we get! No answers, too many questions!

Seriously?

The only issue is that this whole fiascoof disrespect for those who really love the IL2 series who again were lured into thinking that we we important to the devs, feel again that we have been lined up for a practical joke!

I can see Luthier rolling on the floor laughing "haha, they actually believed I was going to listen! Too funny! Put the questions in the bin, I have to finish my next practical joke and see who falls for that!"

The only reason the disrespect and disillusionment has swept this forum is from the totallack of interest and apathy apparent from 1c regarding those who actually care to post issues or bugs that need fixing only to hear that the bug tracking isn't even read!

But post your questions regarding the real issues and bugs and Luthier will ignore those too!

If anyone at 1c had bothered to visit these forums, react to the vast input that has been made, the community wouldn't have had to ask so many questions (that he can't be bothered to answer). They could have been answered over the last 18 months in something called a Friday update?

The total lack of disrespect and apathy on the part of 1C is something I don't believeI have encountered in years of visiting forums.

The main issue now is trust. We are told (well guess!) that BoM is the next greatest Sim, but why the hell do you expect us to believe that, when 1C can't even be trusted to answer genuine questions regarding software on which people have already spent money?

I don't know if 1C can gain the respect back, once bitten, twice shy!

I can only say as others have, we are all busy, we all have jobs or other things that encroach on our time, but we care about this product which is why we offer input and suggestions for making it better.

It's a shame that 1C don't appear to have the same passion for their product as we do and that can only mean they are not interested in anything but the money they get.

If Luthier makes an effort in his busy day to spend just 20 minutes on a Friday (even at home!) like we have done daily for many months then it would be a start, but what makes us think that he will be bothered after his last foray into the forum?

The only issue that has made negativityrage through these threads is the the lack of input after Luthier apparently showed he was interested in the community. The lack of answers has reinforced what many believed, that we'll only be of interest again when he has some more dodgy software to offer from the back of a car!

He needs to answer the questions that we took time to ask to at least start gaining some respect and credibility if he wants us to believein his commitment to us and our future investment in software he claims is fit for release!

Answers to questions please that were asked and we'll go from there.

Disillusioned, MP