Is it possible to fly the Bf-110 with 1 engine?

[Crumpp]

NzTyphoon says:

it doesn't matter whether it was an emergency procedure or not

Sure it does...

Jam66esI would imagine thier training was to put it down asap.

Exactly. It is only common sense.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Sure it does...



Exactly. It is only common sense.

Here we go again - read the original question Crumpp! - Was it possible to fly the Bf 110 on 1 engine? It did not require a long-winded technical explanation, nor did it ask about emergency procedures: In the context of the question asked it did not matter whether flying on one engine was an emergency procedure. Have you got it now?

[Crumpp]

EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS

http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.

Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended. The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.

It is already been show the Bf-110 can operate on a single engine with typical degraded performance.

At rated power, 44" Hg. 2,600 rpm, the airplane will barely hold altitude with landing gear extended and flaps up.

With landing gear extended the airplane will not hold altitude at any flap extension.

http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op12.html

Here is Jeff Ethel's NTSB report. He died making a single engine approach in a P-38.

http://www.winthrop.dk/ethel1.html

Bob Hoover had a really nice aerobatic routine in a far less capable twin.

Good energy management of your degraded performance is the key to successful single engine operation in a twin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7R7j...eature=related

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.

Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended. The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.

It is already been show the Bf-110 can operate on a single engine with typical degraded performance.






http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op12.html

Here is Jeff Ethel's NTSB report. He died making a single engine approach in a P-38.

http://www.winthrop.dk/ethel1.html

Bob Hoover had a really nice aerobatic routine in a far less capable twin.

Good energy management of your degraded performance is the key to successful single engine operation in a twin.

So what is all this palaver meant to prove Crumpp? We get that you consider yourself to be THE No 1 authority on aeronautics, but why persist with a complete dissertation about flying on one engine when the original question simply asked whether it was possible to fly the Messerschmitt Bf 110 on one engine?

Simple answer - yes it was possible. Yes, it could be considered to be an emergency operation, particularly when there were hostile fighters poking around and no, we didn't need Crumpp's lengthy analysis to say it.

[kohmelo]

So in Cod if one engine is shot off from Bf-110 you should immediately turn it off and feather or coarsen, if unable to feather, the pitch as much as possible? Close all rad on that engine and push other engine to its limit 2400-2600 Rpm?

I might be doing something wrong because every time I push Bf-110 near 2400 rpm i'll burn my engine(s) up.

And little offtopic:

Do I remember wrong that there were a prototype Bf-110 with Counter-rotating propellers? I have some vague memory of reading about problems with weight distribution which cancelled the positive effect of Counter-rotating propellers.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by kohmelo

So in Cod if one engine is shot off from Bf-110 you should immediately turn it off and feather or coarsen, if unable to feather, the pitch as much as possible? Close all rad on that engine and push other engine to its limit 2400-2600 Rpm?

I might be doing something wrong because every time I push Bf-110 near 2400 rpm i'll burn my engine(s) up.

And little offtopic:

Do I remember wrong that there were a prototype Bf-110 with Counter-rotating propellers? I have some vague memory of reading about problems with weight distribution which cancelled the positive effect of Counter-rotating propellers.

Yep feather, close rads and only use 2,400 rpm and above on your good engine if you're losing altitude too quickly - you might have to adjust (coarsen) your pitch on your good engine to keep the revs down.

[WTE_Galway]

The interesting thing about the p38, mentioned earlier, is the tops of the propeller arcs move outwards (not inwards like a conventional counter-rotating setup). Naturally this makes the p38 "tricky" under asymmetric thrust regardless of which of the engines fails. There is no critical engine in a p38, they are BOTH bad.

According to Kelly Johnson, this was done to make the p38 a more stable gun platform.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.

Ok..

Bear with me here Crumpp

Because IMHO this post of yours is a little confusing..

Note.. it starts off with the heading/title..

-EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS from the P-38 pilot's manual..
-Followed by the link to the P-38 pilot's manual..
-Followed by the statement Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance...

At a glance one would get the impression that the statement is from the P-38 pilots manual..

But I check the link and no where does it contain that statement..

So, at this point I can only assume that statement is simply your opinion and has nothing to do with the P-38 pilots manual, even though it was presented in such a way as to give the impression that it was from the P-38 pilots manual.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended.

True at very low MP settings..

But more importantly..

'Typically' you would NOT be flying around with your gear and flaps extended on one, let alone two engines!!

That configuration only comes into play during a landing..

Where your not trying to hold an altitude, your trying to reduce your altitude so you can land!

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.

And more!

See the PERFORMANCE section I quoted below

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I found both of these quotes, back to back, in the P-38s pilots manual..

In the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section (4) FURTHER INFORMATION with regards to the preceding section (3) SINGLE ENGINE APPROACH AND LANDING..

As I noted above..

You would NOT fly around with the landing gear and flaps down..

This only comes into play during landing, as noted above SINGLE ENGINE APPROACH AND LANDING..

So, not sure what your point was here?

I also noticed that you failed to note that the P-38s were not limited to 44" Hg..

IIRC the P-38H was limited to 54"Hg. and the later models were limited to 60"Hg. for 110oct and 70"Hg. for 150oct..

So, in essence, the P-38s could fly and maintain alt after raising the gear with or without flaps and an MP set above 44"..

In summary your post has a very cherry picked negative feel to it..

That or maybe in your rush you just missed the following quote from the P-38s pilots manual?

That being the one in the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section (1) ENGINE FAILURE DURING FLIGHT..

Where is says the following

PERFORMANCE - The airplane flies well on one engine. Using normal rated power, it will climb to about 26,500 feet, and can be flown at more than 255 mph (true speed) in level flight at 20,000 feet

As you can see from that quote..

A single engine not only produces enough excess thrust to overcome drag..

It produces enough thrust to climb to an altitude of 26Kft and maintain level flight at 255mph at 20Kft!

Also note the part where is says DURING FLIGHT..

That DURING FLIGHT aspects is what the original question was about wrt the Bf110 and later the P-38..

So, I don't know where you got the impression that we were talking about landings?

But since you brought it up..

I should point out that even on one engine, the P-38 was able to make several landing attempts, as long as it stayed above 500ft..

Allow me..

I should also point out that the following is NOT part of the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section, thus not considered an EMERGENCY procedure

In the section APPROACH AND LANDING section c. SINGLE APPROACH AND LANDING - CAUTION it says

Concentrate sharply on your approach because once you are fully extended the flaps and the landing gear or descended below 500 ft. you cannot again circle the field and you must make a landing. If however the flaps are not fully extended and your elevation is still 500 feet or more and you want to go around again, proceed as follows before beginning to circle.

As you can see from that quote..

A single engine not only produces enough excess thrust to overcome drag..

It produces enough thrust to climb out and circle around for another attempt at landing!

I hope this clarification helps put to rest any of your concerns, and or anyone else who read your post and was concerned that the only option the P-38 had was to land/ditch when flying with one engine!

If your still concerned..

Here is a quote from Stand Wood, who is the WWII P-38 pilot that provided the P-38 pilots manual at that link you provided

Stand Wood:
Two engines in the P-38 gives a person a feeling of security that one engine can never do. I came back once with an oil fire in my right engine and landing with the remaining engine was no trouble

Hope that helps! S!