Soviet fighters and 4.12

[JtD]

Oil entry temp limit for the DB 601E is 80°, 85° short time maximum. Radiators open does a lot for cooling, and it is no miracle that the oil temperature will only just go into overheating, as long as you are on cooler maps. After all, that is what the plane was designed for. Open rads were around 300mm and caused a lot of drag.

The radiators on the 109 were supposed to be on auto during climbs and closed (more correct "fast flight setting") during level flight. If you want to get the best performance out of the plane, you'll need to close radiators and if you want an overheat challenge, fly the plane on hotter maps, for instance a Desert map.

I'm getting the 109F-4 to about 600 km/h, exact figures varying with atmospheric conditions.

[jermin]

What I wrote about radiator was referring to MW50-equipped Bf-109K-4. In the current game, if you go into battle with throttle at 110% and MW50 on while keeping radiator fully opened. You will still get the overheat message within 1 minute. This is ridiculous especially when MW50 has a cooling effect on the engine.

Just like I said, go try these warbirds in FSX. They operate very differently both FM wise and CEM wise compared to what we have in IL2.

[JtD]

It's possible to fly fuel tanks dry on 110% with rads open in a 109 K-4, and that not only on winter maps. I just climbed one from 0 to 10 km at 300 km/h IAS on the Smolensk map. I left it on auto rads and firewalled it upon starting the engine. I didn't even see the overheat message, let alone had temperature related troubles.

Also, just because it overheats it doesn't mean there's any damage. In real live WEP was an 80% overload condition, and it is only logical that the plane overheats in game to illustrate this.

[jermin]

It is pointless to use continuous climbing as the test, since MW50 was supposed to be used only when you are most in need of energy.

Try dogfighting with some bogeys. Do some boom and zoom, barrel roll, chasing and dodging with them. My test result is that the overheat message popped up within 2 minutes since the quick mission started. And the engine was damaged within 5 minutes (Sometimes I didn't even get a audible change in engine sound. The engine and propeller suddenly changed to a full stop.)

The map I used for testing is Crimea.

[JtD]

Crimea is one of the hottest maps, no wonder. Also try to look at temp gauges, just because MW50 is on it doesn't mean you can ignore engine temperatures.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by jermin

It is pointless to use continuous climbing as the test, since MW50 was supposed to be used only when you are most in need of energy.

Try dogfighting with some bogeys. Do some boom and zoom, barrel roll, chasing and dodging with them. My test result is that the overheat message popped up within 2 minutes since the quick mission started. And the engine was damaged within 5 minutes (Sometimes I didn't even get a audible change in engine sound. The engine and propeller suddenly changed to a full stop.)

The map I used for testing is Crimea.

So the method is to go in the QMB, set up a battle, start, engage MW50 at low power and then firewall 110% for the duration of the dogfight or however long the engine lasts? What about dropping to 105%? Alternating rads closed and open depending on speed and attitude?

I'm just thinking that since the new overheat came into effect I've been having no problems as I tend to play the engine management game closely. But.. I spend more time with the 190 and that's nice and easy IMHO.

[Luno13]

Originally Posted by jermin

Sometimes I didn't even get a audible change in engine sound. The engine and propeller suddenly changed to a full stop.

In my tests, RPMs dropped gradually, signalling the damage, even if clanking and pinging sounds weren't heard. Il-2 has a limited range of sounds, so don't rely on audio cues too much.

As others have mentioned, dogfighting low and slow with overboost is just silly. In dives, reduce power so the prop pitch can coarsen, lowering RPMs, and thus temperature. I only use the boost for extended periods when I've done everything else wrong and I have to escape in a straight line.

[ElAurens]

Does anyone really think that WW2 pilots, on any side, would fly an entire engagement with the throttle against the stop and WEP or whatever the equivalent would be on?

It's total rubbish.

Real pilots tried to take care of their mounts, as it had to get them home.

They did not have a refly button.

[IceFire]

I would have to agree. I've read a lot of battle reports and it seems a rare thing to me that a pilot would use full power continuously. In most of the cases I can remember they tend to be in fast engagements where they are in a high speed regime and may be pursuing or fleeing.

I did a little test. I like flying 8vs8 engagements in the QMB so that's what I did. La-7 versus Bf109K-4. I haven't flown the K-4 in a long time so I was a bit rusty but I did fairly well. I find the K-4 flies better these days... perhaps? It's really been a long time since I flew the late Bf109s (I did do a 50 mission DGEN over Berlin in the K-4 once). Anyways...

Full power 110% with MW50 engaged and rads on auto. Overheat around the 4.5-5 minute mark. Resisted the urge to drop back power so I let the overheat go. I got a oil leak at 7 minutes, engine started to chew metal at 8 minutes and at 12 minutes it died and I crashed into the ground after being chased by several La-7s. I managed two kills and my wingies got a few before I got separated.

I'd say that's a brutal test. None of the aircraft in IL-2 that I've tested have had much in the way of similar results. Dogfighting at full WEP isn't something I normally do so I had to resist the impulse to drop it back. I'll often run at 102% or thereabouts so as to maximize my time rather than going for the most amount of heat. But usually if you were to watch my throttle in a dogfight I'm all over the place... slowly up and down from 40% to 90%, a couple of minutes at WEP, then back down for cooling. I also usually run rads closed or at 2 and then open during slow speed fighting where the drag hurts me less and the heat hurts me more.

I've very much internalized this whole process so I do it without thinking.

[jermin]

Come on, guys. It has been proved by a deluge of facts in the forum that MW50 was able to be used continuously for 10 minutes at max engine output in WW2. And there sure was time (and quite often, considering German fighters were seriously outnumbered on both fronts) in real battles when the pilot HAD TO fly the entire engagement with max engine power, because he would have been killed by chasing enemies otherwise.

And using quick mission to conduct the test is absolutely valid, since when you join a battle out of cruising, your engine temperature will be much closer to overheat limit compared to around 45 degrees centigrade when the quick mission starts.

Oleg's overheat model accurately represented the endurance of MW50 enabled engines in that the engine would only be damaged after about 10 minutes' continuous max output when tested in the same setup.