British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Kurfürst]

David, you do have the Spitfire Mark II manual as of summer 1940? What does it say on this topic?

[bongodriver]

The manual gives some precautionary advice that in no way give any indication the aircraft is dangerously unstable, rather it just reminds you that it can bite if 'mishandled', quite unsurprising for an aircraft of which the defining quality was manouverability.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

David, you do have the Spitfire Mark II manual as of summer 1940? What does it say on this topic?

Yes and there is nothing that seems exceptional.

Crumpp highlighted the parts of a Spitfire manual that caused him some concern and I addressed those individually and am more than willing to do the same for you.

Krump
You have also said that there are a number of cases of the Spitfire breaking up in the air and again I ask you to supply some examples. If we have examples we have smething to base the discussion on without them we don't.

[OSSI]

Bf109 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration.
Need faster Flaps moving out and in
Autopitch dont work correct


Bf110 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
need better turn

Ju88 FM need fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
Need better turn


Ju87 need FM fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak

[robtek]

Originally Posted by OSSI

Bf109 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration.
Need faster Flaps moving out and in
Autopitch dont work correct


Bf110 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
need better turn

Ju88 FM need fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
Need better turn


Ju87 need FM fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak

Sorry, but without data which values should have to be corrected how and why this is just a whine post.

[TomcatViP]

@Ossi: there is no loss of "energy momentum" in the 109 or 110 that I know about. IMOHO it's even the contrary with a more friendly behavior modeled to get more fun out of it I believe (109).

Your expectations might be too high.

Of course the S*** is another story but as we can only whisper after her in this place I won't even mention it.


@Typhoon: Your extract mention the Merlin XX. It's up to you to conclude there is a link with the Merlin XII. Wonder if it is that way that you found evidences of the 100 oct being used.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Yes and there is nothing that seems exceptional.

Crumpp highlighted the parts of a Spitfire manual that caused him some concern and I addressed those individually and am more than willing to do the same for you.

Well the manual highlights that the elevator is so sensitive that the pilot can easily pull enough g-load to exceed the structural limitations and of the aircraft. It isn't so in the sim, no matter how crazy manouveres I tried in the Spit (ie. vertical dives at Vne) I simply couldn't break it.

It's incorrect and the stick/pitch behaviour should be fixed.

Also the aircraft seem to be rolling much faster at high speed than it should - 3 times as fast as I recall.

Personally I think this disharmony between the controls and senstitivity in pitch are one of the most curious ommitments from the Spitfire's FM. Simply to put, it is not flown like a Spitfire, 'with a light fingertip on the elevator and arm wrestling the ailerons' as pilots have put it.

Positive pitch stability for the Spitfire FM in the sim is also confirmed, as opposed to the real life longitudal pitch instability. This is, again, important for the flying experience: the very low stick force per g and slight instability meant that real Spit had to be handled with careful movements on the stick, and with routine aft-and-fore movements on the stick to prevent the aircraft to tighten up itself. I do not think this was particularly dangerous (though the low stick force per g had some safety risks, admitted by the manual), but it was characteristic of the Spitfire's handling.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Well the manual highlights that the elevator is so sensitive that the pilot can easily pull enough g-load to exceed the structural limitations and of the aircraft. It isn't so in the sim, no matter how crazy manouveres I tried in the Spit (ie. vertical dives at Vne) I simply couldn't break it.

It's incorrect and the stick/pitch behaviour should be fixed.

Also the aircraft seem to be rolling much faster at high speed than it should - 3 times as fast as I recall.

Personally I think this disharmony between the controls and senstitivity in pitch are one of the most curious ommitments from the Spitfire's FM. Simply to put, it is not flown like a Spitfire, 'with a light fingertip on the elevator and arm wrestling the ailerons' as pilots have put it.

Positive pitch stability for the Spitfire FM in the sim is also confirmed, as opposed to the real life longitudal pitch instability. This is, again, important for the flying experience: the very low stick force per g and slight instability meant that real Spit had to be handled with careful movements on the stick, and with routine aft-and-fore movements on the stick to prevent the aircraft to tighten up itself. I do not think this was particularly dangerous (though the low stick force per g had some safety risks, admitted by the manual), but it was characteristic of the Spitfire's handling.

+1

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Well the manual highlights that the elevator is so sensitive that the pilot can easily pull enough g-load to exceed the structural limitations and of the aircraft. It isn't so in the sim, no matter how crazy manouveres I tried in the Spit (ie. vertical dives at Vne) I simply couldn't break it.

It's incorrect and the stick/pitch behaviour should be fixed.

Also the aircraft seem to be rolling much faster at high speed than it should - 3 times as fast as I recall.

Personally I think this disharmony between the controls and senstitivity in pitch are one of the most curious ommitments from the Spitfire's FM. Simply to put, it is not flown like a Spitfire, 'with a light fingertip on the elevator and arm wrestling the ailerons' as pilots have put it.

Positive pitch stability for the Spitfire FM in the sim is also confirmed, as opposed to the real life longitudal pitch instability. This is, again, important for the flying experience: the very low stick force per g and slight instability meant that real Spit had to be handled with careful movements on the stick, and with routine aft-and-fore movements on the stick to prevent the aircraft to tighten up itself. I do not think this was particularly dangerous (though the low stick force per g had some safety risks, admitted by the manual), but it was characteristic of the Spitfire's handling.

I have already said that in a previous posting when I replied to the Crumps pilots notes

In a high speed dive it is possible to exceed the G limit, if you pull up too quickly.

So I don't see what the problem is. The only problem is the emphasis on it is easy. The pilots notes don't say that its easy, that say that it is very easy for the pilot to impose high load factors when looping, pulling out of dives or doing tight turns. Something any pilot of any airforce would agree. It then goes on to say that it is well within the pilots power to exceed 10G. If the Spitfire goes past 10G then you can expect the wings to come off.
I do not have any problem with the SIM breaking the wings off should the Spit exceed 10G

However its the how easy is it.
It depends on the individual but you would expect most pilots to lose consiousness at 7-8G and tunnel vision happens well before then. The Sim should show a tunnel vision effect at around 4G and a loss of consiousness at around say 8G.

All aircraft will have their break point whereas the effect on the pilot of the G forces is a constant and would apply to all.

In the real world it would be a rare pilot who delberately went past the point of consiousness it would have to be a real emergency, last throw of the dice situation. This would explain why it was rare to have an accident of this type.

The only situation I can see this happening is if the pilot yanked hard on the controls adn suddenly went through the passing out limit. Even here they would probably have a chance to ease off the controls as there are four stages, 1) a loss of colour vision, 2) tunnel vision 3) blacking out whilst stayng consious and then 4) passing out.

So to sum up, if the Pilot decides to go into a state of passing out and then the aircraft goes through its limits, you have a chance of things breaking up.

[JtD]

Blacking out takes time, damaging the airframe does not. There's no reasonable way to exceed the airframes limit in a sustained manoeuvre, however, in a sudden pull out, or due to buffeting with elbows not fixated, it may happen.
Put it as you want, personally I'd not agree with "dangerously low" control forces as propagated by some, nor do I agree that it was a none issue. The Spitfire II pilot notes had the paragraphs added in early 1940, after at least two fatal accidents due to wing failure had occurred and several Spitfires went to maintenance with bend wings. It wasn't a that rare thing to happen, but certainly Spitfires weren't falling from the sky as some here seem to believe. An extra warning was deemed necessary, as pilots transferring to Spitfire equipped units simply were not used to a feature like that. WRT elevator forces, I'd say that the Spitfires elevator forces were not sufficiently high to prevent accidents. Hence they were getting some attention.
Once more about longitudinal stability - the about neutral static stability of the Spitfire gave a lot of pitch reaction to little elevator movement. However, as opposed to what some claim here, the airframe would not self destruct given a bit of elevator input, as would be the case in a statically unstable aircraft. It was not necessary to pull back the stick to get a pitch up, and then push the stick forward to maintain controlled flight. A low static stability means that an aircraft needs a lot of time to settle around a new condition. This in turn means, that if you want a strong initial reaction, you'll have to pull back the stick like you would in a more stable aircraft, however, you'd end up at a lot more g. Or, you can pull back more gently and end up at the same g as a more stable aircraft, but you'd have a slower initial reaction. This leads to the pull - push routine an experience pilot would employ while putting the Spitfire through manoeuvres. Large deflection for a quick initial reaction, eased forward for moderate final loads. This is not critical at all, as the stick forces increase as the g load builds up. In a normally loaded Spitfire I, the pilot would still have to exert near 50 lbs of force to damage the airframe.
On to dynamic stability - short period oscillations were sufficiently damped by the Spitfire. Long period oscillations were not. This was however, typical for aircraft of that era, and opposed to what one poster claims, fighter aircraft of that time in general were no hands off aircraft. In fact, the Spitfire stability in long period oscillation is above average from what I've seen, much better than say a Hurricane. One of NACA's chief test engineers states that all fighter aircraft they tested were dynamically unstable in long period oscillations. They do not matter much to the pilot while flying, where they do matter is if the pilot's unconscious, and regains consciousness only to find himself in a steep spiral dive he can't get out of.
I'd recommend that instead of going over the same Spitfire chart time and again, try finding charts for other aircraft. This would certainly help to get the proper perspective, and maybe even an overall more accurate FM for many planes, not just the Spitfire. The focus of some on that plane is worrying.