SHOOTING at the OLYMPICS

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

After reading pretty much all the posts in here, all the arguments on both sides, what you wrote there mate pretty much sums everything up;

What seems like "common sense" for an individual, is derived from a person's innermost conviction and fundamental values, and that is the reason why - even though we lot sometimes seems to be very much alike - we are so different... surprisingly different.
For me and many others, the phrases "common sense" and "owning a gun" is a contradiction in terms.

My only input is; we quite clearly live in very different circumstances. We feel sorry for you guys having to live in a society where you can get your hands on leathal guns so easily, and you guys feel sorry for us not beeing able to "defend ourselves".

I really don't see any of us beeing able to convince "the other side" to change stance in this issue. I also know that there is no point for us Europeans trying to convince Americans, as we are mostly beeing glanced upon as beeing "patronizing" when it comes to issues like this. IF there is to be a change in the US, it has to come from within.

cheers

you see, it's broader than that, and guns are only an example, it's about individual freedom and possibility to choose over matters.

I don't want a government to touch my fundamental rights, I want a government to fix the problems of society that bring stuff like crime. The fact that a criminal can potentially get hold of a gun is only the end result of a government that can't prevent crime by applying the right social policies, and convince their population that the solution is to remove guns out of the equation to make our society safer. But it's not the case, people keep on dying, being attacked, raped, robbed, so something doesn't quite work. Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council )*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.
people getting killed are mostly criminals themselves.

Actually the only type of crime that seems to increase dramatically in Sweden are environmental crimes, nothing where a handgun can make a difference..

Edit... robbery has increased marginally the past few years, but it makes more sence (to me anyway) to wear a bicycle helmet than to carry a handgun... looking at risks and potentials to die.

*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.


Statistics for NY:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
quite a dramatic change in comparison to the 90ies.. and it has nothing to do with people arming themselves

Stats for US
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


PS. Oh dear.. Now I did what I said to myself I shouldn't do... get involved in the debate LOL. Point beeing anyway; the only way one can say crime is on the rise, one has to backup with stats, not with just a "feel"..
But again, as we agreed upon,, it all stems down to one's foundation of values.. where we seem to differ

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council http://www.bra.se)*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.


*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.

the main factor is the country and population's wealth: wealthier countries with a small economic inequality among classes have way less violent crimes than others. One of the main drivers of crime is poverty. Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

the main factor is the country and population's wealth: wealthier countries with a small economic inequality among classes have way less violent crimes than others. One of the main drivers of crime is poverty. Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

I totally agree, poverty and economic inequality is indeed a huge reason for rise of crime (if there is one). I would however claim that immigration in itself is not the major issue, but rather how the state/government/society deals with it. Sweden is one of the most open countries in the world when it comes to refugees and immigrants. Of course we have lots of problems that stems from segregation, poverty and alienation... but arming oneself is not the answer. We are talking about a completely different dimension when it comes to these things.
Sweden is not at all that different from the UK in terms on immigrants, in the UK 8.982% immigrants in comparison of national population, Sweden 12.3%

But again, having a society where we have less of economic inequality and poverty is probably the best medicine.. ..sure we have a high tax rate in Sweden, but dare I say ( i have heard it before)... we are no communists LOL

PS again: this is NOT a "my country is better than yours" post.

[F19_Klunk]

duplicated

[csThor]

The weapons fetish of some people, and the US as a whole, and the vehemence with which people defend it never ceases to amaze and shock me. I, for example, am quite thankful for the strict german laws on weapons ownership and wouldn't mind seeing them made even stricter (to prevent weapons caches with dozens of guns).

But that, I guess, is the fundamental difference in cultures and upbringing.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by csThor

The weapons fetish of some people, and the US as a whole,

Agreeing with you but not that statement... I know a lot of Americans that completely have the same values in regard to these things as I do. To stigmatize a whole nation like that is not only wrong, but gains nothing. It's like saying all Europeans are pro EU

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

Breathtaking!! I thought you didn't like racism Stern? Are you a higher crime risk then?

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by arthursmedley

Breathtaking!! I thought you didn't like racism Stern? Are you a higher crime risk then?

One hasn't have to be a racist to state the obvious. I am for a generous immigrant/refugee policy in Sweden, but it is important to identify and see problems that comes with it.. such as risk for alienation, segregation.. or you have no means to work with these issues. It's not all great and dandy... but it is important to be open for people in need (imo). Often when I look on the news on TV, seeing all the scheit that goes on, I think to myself what a lucky bast**d I am beeing born where I was.

Back to topic: The "right" to bear arms

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by csThor

The weapons fetish of some people, and the US as a whole, and the vehemence with which people defend it never ceases to amaze and shock me. I, for example, am quite thankful for the strict german laws on weapons ownership and wouldn't mind seeing them made even stricter (to prevent weapons caches with dozens of guns).

But that, I guess, is the fundamental difference in cultures and upbringing.

I'm sorry but your attitude is pathetic. What shocks me is how disrespectful some people are towards other people's interests. Just because you don't like firearms it doesn't mean that they're bad or not moral. I for one wouldn't be too happy to think that my government, which I elected and gave power to give me a better society, doesn't trust me with my own fundamental rights and decides to deprive me of stuff for the sake of better (theirs) control, not safety. You really need to be blind not to see this.

Originally Posted by arthursmedley

Breathtaking!! I thought you didn't like racism Stern? Are you a higher crime risk then?

nope, unfortunately there's immigrant and immigrant, even if people are SO scared of making distinctions based on race and provenience here (and it's not like they don't think of them, it's just that they don't have the attributes to voice them cos they're not politically correct).. if anything I provide this country with highly specialised work skills that locals are too lazy to learn, and my taxes go towards many of those lazy useless waste of spaces out there that live off benefits, so bite me.