SHOOTING at the OLYMPICS

[Sternjaeger II]

Bewolf, as you know I come from Italy and I can assure you that the nature of crime there is incredibly varied.

I can guarantee you that in modern western society nobody is forced to be a criminal, it's ALL about will. Crime is strongly bonded to the good ol' equation "I can't afford something but I want it = I'll steal it". It's probably driven by class envy or pure greediness. In a way I feel like the minor criminals are driven by "good reasons" but apply the wrong method, whilst the corporate criminals are pure evil greedy monsters with no sense of the future and no respect for their equals. There are many levels as I said, but you CHOOSE to become a dishonest person.

As per your point on guns being fuel for the fire, I don't think it's always the case: it's a society that deems acceptable to play video games that promote murder and gore, or films that make murder part of their normal routine that cause an overall "numbing" towards the whole concept of violence. We love our action movies and cheer when stuff gets blown up, but we kinda forget that on a subconscious level we are making them a form of entertainment and we're not as shocked when we deal with them in real life.

Back in the day real violence was used as a form of entertainment, nowadays we use fake violence, but it works on the same level: a person with mental issues will absorb and assimilate that to a level where it's hard to distinct between reality and fiction, so even the most atrocious crime (like the one in Aurora) might be somehow justified because of the altered state in which the person lives.

And again it doesn't need a gun to be devastating: the guy could have thrown grenades in that cinema and killed and maimed way more people. The Oklahoma bomber didn't use guns for his terrorist attack either, did he?
The problem is not guns, the problem is the society we live in, and how we numbing ourselves in front of real pain and suffer.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Bewolf, as you know I come from Italy and I can assure you that the nature of crime there is incredibly varied.

Undoubtly

I can guarantee you that in modern western society nobody is forced to be a criminal, it's ALL about will.

Agreed, nobody is "forced". But, no, it is not about "will". Will is something you develop when you have a perspective to reach something. And I personally only know very, very few people actually managing to get enough will togeteher to change something about their situation or attitude. "Will" requires a lot of intelligence and self awareness. That is not the norm.

Crime is strongly bonded to the good ol' equation "I can't afford something but I want it = I'll steal it".

Only when other methods have failed, the preconditions for these methods never expirienced or never taught. Without wanting to tell you my life story, there was a time when I dropped down to certain levels of society and expirienced first hand how people think and live there. And the one expirience I made that hardly any of the people there are intentional ass****. One guy, who with the age of 20 actually did rob a gas station with a gun and went to jail for it. These days this individual is one of my best and most loyal friends who by now got his exams and a highly paid job as an IT specialist. Some hard work on my part was involved in this.

It's probably driven by class envy or pure greediness. In a way I feel like the minor criminals are driven by "good reasons" but apply the wrong method, whilst the corporate criminals are pure evil greedy monsters with no sense of the future and no respect for their equals. There are many levels as I said, but you CHOOSE to become a dishonest person.

It is not driven by class envy, though that may be part of the justification. It's mostly done out of impressing buddies, desperation and a simple lack of fantasy in regards to what may happen or what the one being assaulted may think. Ppl at that age simply are not aware of the eventual consequences or don't take it serious enough. Now it is easy to say "you should have known better", but we all know how people are even at later ages. Expecting them to actually be aware of what they do and make a concious choice here, THAT is what is utopian. And a very very comfortable way of deflecting all responsebilities. It is like expecting a dog to use a toilet and punishing him with the excuse that he shoudl have known better. (and yes, I DO say here that a lot of people do not function on their brains, but on gut feeling and instict). It simply does not work this way.

As per your point on guns being fuel for the fire, I don't think it's always the case: it's a society that deems acceptable to play video games that promote murder and gore, or films that make murder part of their normal routine that cause an overall "numbing" towards the whole concept of violence. We love our action movies and cheer when stuff gets blown up, but we kinda forget that on a subconscious level we are making them a form of entertainment and we're not as shocked when we deal with them in real life.

You are right, it is not "always" the case. But it certainly is the case in a country that has seen extremly high rates of gun related crimes and murder for decades now.

However, I do agree that our modern culture showing violence and gore in movies on an unprecendet scale has some influence here. That is part of one of the points I made before, a lack of responsebility in society, enjoying such creulties for the fun of it and then wondering that it may actually have an effect on people in the long run. Games and movies have become way, waaay too violent. I've only seen the frist SAW movie. I got so sick of it that I never watched any other part. Yet it is one of the greatest series in the last decade. Go figure.

Back in the day real violence was used as a form of entertainment, nowadays we use fake violence, but it works on the same level: a person with mental issues will absorb and assimilate that to a level where it's hard to distinct between reality and fiction, so even the most atrocious crime (like the one in Aurora) might be somehow justified because of the altered state in which the person lives.

It is not justifyable at all. But it has it's reasons. And cheering the killings while ignoring the underlying patters is what makes those individuals part of the problem, not the solution.

And again it doesn't need a gun to be devastating: the guy could have thrown grenades in that cinema and killed and maimed way more people. The Oklahoma bomber didn't use guns for his terrorist attack either, did he?
The problem is not guns, the problem is the society we live in, and how we numbing ourselves in front of real pain and suffer.

Oh, so you think a bomb is a good justification for people having guns?
I agree, there are lots of ways to kill people. And the more sophisticated killers do not need a gun to begin with. But then again, THOSE people are the ones who actually make a descision. In that category, it does not really matter. Brevik tried to bomb buildings in Oslo as well before he got into his gunning spree on that island.

But those kind of people only compromise a tiny fraction of ppl using a gun.

Let me make something clear. I am not advocating letting those teens with guns, or other criminals, get of lightly. They will have to learn a lesson, just pampering them and telling them that it is societies fault won't do any good here. They need to realize that they are reponsible for what they do and make them aware of the consequences, both for themselves and their potential victims.

However, "cheering" and applauding when a 19 year old kid is taken down is just outright evil and puts the person at the same level as the criminal himself. It is that kind of people that breed that kind of cynical and hard attitude you often find at lower levels of society. If I had expirienced such attitudes when I was at that level, I probably would have had few problems dealing with that person accordingly myself. Not because it would have been the right thing to do, but because human nature does not cope well with being put down that way.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Expecting them to actually be aware of what they do and make a concious choice here, THAT is what is utopian.

He was 19 for christ's sake! That's a grown man, not a child.

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Absolutely, but as you know, everybody makes mistakes. That, too, is human nature.

[ATAG_Doc]

The bottom line is don't go thug'in!

[SYN_Flashman]

A few pages back someone mentioned pepper spray.

Ive used it when confronting some violent people attacking a man lying on the ground having his head stamped on. The attackers, of whom there were several were all physically larger than me.... and Im 6ft and weigh 190lbs... in fact one of them (the one armed with a big piece of wood he was using to bash the poor victim with!) appeared to enjoy steriods with every meal.

The spray worked immediately and they ran off (rather than turning on me.....thankfully!) and were apprehended later. One of them didnt run that far as he couldn't see very well. All in all its not bad stuff and in the UK its illegal for civilians to own.

However, i'd rather not have to rely on it to confront a gun toting loon or a bear. Frankly were I live both situations are unlikely. Though the badgers can be quite angry.....

Anyhoo, back the very original post. Good work on the skeet shooting that man! If only I was half as good with my shotgun.....

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by swiss

I had this opportunity quite often - they were supposed to be empty tho.

What was the story behind it?

Marrokkon Dude not happy about us three cleaning up a parking lot after a party and his car not being able to pull out. He "commanded" me to get the dirt bags away that were in his path. When I did not comply, he pulled a gun. There simply can't be a more banal way to get a gun to your forehead, at the midst of day right in front of our scool (back then, I was 18 ).

The two others stepped back, I stayed and stared him down, telling him to put that playtool away and just leave. Which he did after a minute of pointing that gun at me. He then just drove over those bins in defiance.

Originally Posted by swiss

He was 19 for christ's sake! That's a grown man, not a child.

I know people who were more grown up then me today when they were 20. I know peope with the age of 40 who are not grown up to this very day. What you look for is not grown up, but maturity. And that often is completely independent of age. You just have to check this forum for getting a feeling of how mature many folks here actually are. And matureness is not something entirely up to you. And just because we generally say 18 is the mark to be grown up, there is no magic button that is activated and makes you a grown man once you actually turn 18.

Say, Swiss, what is it with you and easy death, btw? Death here, klling populations there, death there, death in a second, death yeeehaw. Switzerland is an incredible boring and uptight place (incredible beautiful nevertheless), I give you that, been there often enough. But it can't be THAT boring.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Say, Swiss, what is it with you and easy death, btw? Death here, klling populations there, death there, death in a second, death yeeehaw. Switzerland is an incredible boring and uptight place, I give you that, but it can't be "THAT" boring.

I fail to see any relation between hating humans and boredom.
Maybe I am, in your view, the proof some people are born evil.

Movie rec.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEFj0Pngu_E

edit:

And another hero

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYA78ss-B-o

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by swiss

I fail to see any relation between hating humans and boredom.
Maybe I am, in your view, the proof some people are born evil.

Movie rec.:

Iiiiiii give you a hint. Forming your view on the world based on Hollywood usually is not such a good idea =)

And no, you are as harmless as can be. Barking dogs don't bite. The quite, really quite ones is who concern me most. Those who can't get their inner pressure out verbally.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Iiiiiii give you a hint. Forming your view on the world based on Hollywood usually is not such a good idea =)

uh-uh

And no, you are as harmless as can be. Barking dogs don't bite. The quite, really quite ones is who concern me most. Those who can't get their inner pressure out verbally.

Doesn't always need pressure kill, some do it for fun*.
But of course you'd feel sorry even for a serial killer.
Anyway, I don't feel like spending 15yrs in jail, so I'll just keep barking.

*Back in the 90's a close friend of mine was invited to a manhunt in India. At first he thought the other guy was joking - he wasn't...
Such things exist.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Marrokkon Dude not happy about us three cleaning up a parking lot after a party and his car not being able to pull out. He "commanded" me to get the dirt bags away that were in his path. When I did not comply, he pulled a gun. There simply can't be a more banal way to get a gun to your forehead, at the midst of day right in front of our scool (back then, I was 18 ).

The two others stepped back, I stayed and stared him down, telling him to put that playtool away and just leave. Which he did after a minute of pointing that gun at me. He then just drove over those bins in defiance.

That's exactly my point mate: a thug pulls a gun to your temple cos in a society with no guns he knows you and/or your mates won't have one.
In a society with a gun ban the thugs will still have thir guns, so I don't see why I should deprive law abiding citizen of the right to self defence. Nobody is forcing you to have one, but if you want you can and it can save you and the people around you.

I'm sorry you had such an awful experience, but it wouldn't have been any different in a society with a gun ban.