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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer Maddox Games.

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  #1  
Old 08-01-2012, 01:24 AM
Chivas Chivas is offline
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Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt View Post
If people spent as much energy in the sim as they do in the forums


1) we would have a deeper knowledge of how things work in the sim, making it easier to see exactly why something else doesn't work

2) we would have compiled our own comprehensive, prioritised bug list and submitted it to 1c, making it much faster to correct them.

3) we would have workarounds for most of the things that don't work

4) armed with all the above, we would have tons of missions to enjoy (online and offline) because people would be able to work around the problems


You know, like Wolf does in his channel command mission that is hosted on ATAG. Or like some of us did in trying to give a proper battle of Britain feel to this sim, first by trying to make bombers workable and then by advocating certain priorities in specific gameplay fixes. Highly unpopular gameplay fixes but negligible in terms of work hours required (especially compared to some of the more popular features), which however have a tremendous effect on gameplay. You know, stuff like the LW bombers being able to aim their bombs in a sim about a battle where LW was bombing the UK. Or getting someone to copy-paste the working code from the He-111's gyrocompass to the non-working Ju88's gyrocompass. We've had to wait 18 months for that last one, not because the devs didn't know about it, but because too many people thought the tracers were not squiggly enough, or the grass was too green, or whatever else "highly important" feature that was shouted from the rooftops at various points in time and had to be appeased by taking full priority in the dev team's schedule


Well, people like Wolf want things to work in the game and he made them work. Now he's got the developer's ear and is in direct communication with them about bug hunting and testing, because he sees things that the majority of users don't: FMB bugs, scripting issues, netcode problems, etc. Important stuff. In a similar fashion, in the "news from sukhoi.ru" thread i saw that they are fixing the bombsights too.

The sim will start feeling like battle of Britain instead of battle of the Dover-Calais strait, compared to that a delay of a few days or even a week or two is inconsequential to me. If they told me "we'll fix all known bugs in all aircraft systems but release the patch two weeks later" i'd say "sure, go for it", because:
- It's easier and totally unambiguous to get right, as opposed to the endless FM/DM debates. A switch is a switch and does a specific thing.
- It ups the realism and authenticity, giving us more to play with until everything else is ironed out.
- Even if the FMs are a bit dodgy still, it gives us aircraft that can function in their intended role.


Overall, the funny thing is that a few people in the community who just wanted the sim to work for themselves and did something to achieve it, will result in the sim getting fixed faster for everyone, including those who think we're wasting our time. Well, in a sense we are all wasting our time here, it's a hobby.

The difference is how much you (impersonal "you", in general) make the hobby work for you, because that's what differentiates between the "good" and "bad" kinds of wasted time. You put some time in, you get some knowledge out of it that helps you enjoy it more. Or you can just tell everybody else to hurry up in the forums, report the bugs for you, find the workarounds for you, host the servers for you, build the missions for you, etc etc. Well, if they thought like you, none of that would ever get done and your $50 would surely have been wasted. So either join them in their efforts or let them do their job for you in peace.
You might have paid money to maddox games, but you haven't paid any to all the community members that are helping the developer team fix your game, have you now? Well, we don't want money, we just want to be left to work in peace for a while
A logical solution while waiting for the devs to complete this very complicated sim, and infinitely more constructive than infantile destructive forum trolling.
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2012, 03:12 PM
FS~Phat FS~Phat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt View Post
If people spent as much energy in the sim as they do in the forums


1) we would have a deeper knowledge of how things work in the sim, making it easier to see exactly why something else doesn't work

2) we would have compiled our own comprehensive, prioritised bug list and submitted it to 1c, making it much faster to correct them.

3) we would have workarounds for most of the things that don't work

4) armed with all the above, we would have tons of missions to enjoy (online and offline) because people would be able to work around the problems


You know, like Wolf does in his channel command mission that is hosted on ATAG. Or like some of us did in trying to give a proper battle of Britain feel to this sim, first by trying to make bombers workable and then by advocating certain priorities in specific gameplay fixes. Highly unpopular gameplay fixes but negligible in terms of work hours required (especially compared to some of the more popular features), which however have a tremendous effect on gameplay. You know, stuff like the LW bombers being able to aim their bombs in a sim about a battle where LW was bombing the UK. Or getting someone to copy-paste the working code from the He-111's gyrocompass to the non-working Ju88's gyrocompass. We've had to wait 18 months for that last one, not because the devs didn't know about it, but because too many people thought the tracers were not squiggly enough, or the grass was too green, or whatever else "highly important" feature that was shouted from the rooftops at various points in time and had to be appeased by taking full priority in the dev team's schedule


Well, people like Wolf want things to work in the game and he made them work. Now he's got the developer's ear and is in direct communication with them about bug hunting and testing, because he sees things that the majority of users don't: FMB bugs, scripting issues, netcode problems, etc. Important stuff. In a similar fashion, in the "news from sukhoi.ru" thread i saw that they are fixing the bombsights too.

The sim will start feeling like battle of Britain instead of battle of the Dover-Calais strait, compared to that a delay of a few days or even a week or two is inconsequential to me. If they told me "we'll fix all known bugs in all aircraft systems but release the patch two weeks later" i'd say "sure, go for it", because:
- It's easier and totally unambiguous to get right, as opposed to the endless FM/DM debates. A switch is a switch and does a specific thing.
- It ups the realism and authenticity, giving us more to play with until everything else is ironed out.
- Even if the FMs are a bit dodgy still, it gives us aircraft that can function in their intended role.


Overall, the funny thing is that a few people in the community who just wanted the sim to work for themselves and did something to achieve it, will result in the sim getting fixed faster for everyone, including those who think we're wasting our time. Well, in a sense we are all wasting our time here, it's a hobby.

The difference is how much you (impersonal "you", in general) make the hobby work for you, because that's what differentiates between the "good" and "bad" kinds of wasted time. You put some time in, you get some knowledge out of it that helps you enjoy it more. Or you can just tell everybody else to hurry up in the forums, report the bugs for you, find the workarounds for you, host the servers for you, build the missions for you, etc etc. Well, if they thought like you, none of that would ever get done and your $50 would surely have been wasted. So either join them in their efforts or let them do their job for you in peace.
You might have paid money to maddox games, but you haven't paid any to all the community members that are helping the developer team fix your game, have you now? Well, we don't want money, we just want to be left to work in peace for a while
+1,000,000 in my best Dr evil voice .... :!
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  #3  
Old 08-01-2012, 01:14 AM
Chivas Chivas is offline
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Originally Posted by Fenrir View Post
Oh BRAVO....

People of your ilk have long lost the right to be 'treated like adults' as your above post so aptly demonstrates.

Has it ever occured to you that the programming crew might spend so many hours in a day trying to get stuff fixed that they might not relish the idea of coming in here and being haranged by obnoxious flaming little brats of the ilk that you so excellently typify. To know that you frustrations wll be compounded by whiny grabbing ignorants who'll villify you for your efforts because they can't generate enough brain power to look beyond their own selfish little desires?

I'd stay so damn far away it's not funny.

B6 is their spokes person, he was away for one damn day for reasons beyond his control. Sh1t happens, get over it.

And as for programming, No I'm not a programmer, but I've used enough html and flash codes over the years and had friends of mine who are try to explain coding that actually I damn well KNOW it CAN be that complicated. You are the one who sounds like he doesn't have a clue. Unless of course you have a brand new WW2 flight sim of amazing high fidelity flight dyamics, with your own home built game engine waiting in the wings?

No? i didn't think so. Just goes to show there are too many pretentious ignorant pricks around here.
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:25 PM
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Frequent_Flyer Frequent_Flyer is offline
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Originally Posted by Fenrir View Post
Nice petulant attitude round here.

Once you guys have stopped behaving like spoiled brats and have collected your toys and put them back in the pram perhaps you might take the time to consider a few things, like adults:

1) B6 is not a native English speaker -albeit quite a good one - and some of what he said on Friday*might* have beeen lost in translation. Perhaps the patch was never due out today.

2) They might have run into a serious issue with patch that can't be 'just fixed' as some round here seem to think it so easily done.

3) B6 is ill - and yet some of you still hound him for not establishing the patch status! Grow a little empathy will ya?! Some of us in this world have more important things to do - it's called life btw - than drip feed people here information on the status of a computer game. Jeez!

4) Given the recent move of Maddox Games and the general air of poor communication I'd hazard a guess that things are pretty tough there at the moment financially; I suspect that a lot of programmers are working long hours with little or no overtime pay to try and fix the game engine; the complexity of the new game features with the concurrent analysis of several million lines of still neophyte code to go through - most of which, if changed, will have several knock on effects to still more code - I personally am not surprised at the length of time fixes are taking to come about. Remember that peoples job security hangs on the ability to fix the code in order to make Battle Over Moscow, and ANY of the prospective further developments viable, sellable products. Those guys will know that. They will understand that in order to save their jobs and look at some prospect of employment longevity it has to be done. Or face the Russian dole queue (is there one?) in the midst of a world wide ecomomic recession. Given that motivation I don't think that attitudes round here are a) very relevent or b) very helpful.

5) I appreciate many of you are angry at having paid out for essentially a lame duck. It shouldn't have been released in that state but developer and publisher contracts are Holy writ. In an ideal world the 6 years of development should have come to more than this, I agree. However in the history of computer gaming things like this have always happened - how many duff games have hit the shelf over the years to be poorly supported, if at all. Christ, CFS2 was chock full of bugs - for those who remember it - and that was Microsofts most succesful Combat Flight Sim! The point is you can't keep haranguing them for it - what is done is done, and no amount of bitching moaning or threatening can change that.

5) We've been spoilt with Il-2, first by Oleg and now Team Daidalos, whose free and regular quality patching over the past 11 years has been exemplary, if not unique. However Il-2s coding is by all accounts several orders of magnitude simpler. All those features you wanted for BoB, that weren't in Il-2? Extra code. And not just one line, but probably a several hundred, each one cascading and interlinked to many others. Finding the faults, let alone fixing is going to take much more time than with Il-2. And every time you do fix, it is likely that it throws something else out. You demanded certain things be modelled, you said that you wanted higher fidelity. Well welcome to the cost gentlemen. Codes don't write themselves. Someone - and not just any someone but a trained, smart, motivated, alert and observant computer programmer - has to be sitting in front of a machine punching the keys. This takes time. Get used to it.
You present a very good case for 1c to hire a professional organization to finish what has been started !
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