ATAG Dedicated Server is up!

[ATAG_Deacon]

Originally Posted by hc_wolf

You will see very soon.

I just love the visual spectacle more then anything.

Tease...

[AbortedMan]

Just wanted to comment on Farber's post...

Most Red's probably hide around base defenses because most Blue's can do the same and hide in their ability to climb...with the current state of the FMs there's not much a Spit can do when met at Co-alt with a 109 but watch it go vertical and rocket up another 5000ft upon contact. Even when the Spit has the altitude advantage, a 109 can easily overtake them if the Spit pilot isn't careful or skilled enough to be aware of the situation.

Spits have to work 10x harder to get to a proper altitude that a 109 can reach with relative ease...this leads to most solo pilots (the majority of the server at most times) not dedicating the couple minutes it takes to get to 22k ft and just taking refuge in the lower populated airbase areas, or they've probably attempted the climb, made contact with 109, then watched it zoom up even then and got frustrated.

Cause and effect. Players are going to "game the game" unless encouraged to do otherwise. I'm hoping Wolf's new mission will alleviate this base-babysitting/base vulching mentality, and we can finally put the "Battle of Hawkinge" mission behind us.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Just wanted to comment on Farber's post...

Most Red's probably hide around base defenses because most Blue's can do the same and hide in their ability to climb...with the current state of the FMs there's not much a Spit can do when met at Co-alt with a 109 but watch it go vertical and rocket up another 5000ft upon contact. Even when the Spit has the altitude advantage, a 109 can easily overtake them if the Spit pilot isn't careful or skilled enough to be aware of the situation.

Spits have to work 10x harder to get to a proper altitude that a 109 can reach with relative ease...this leads to most solo pilots (the majority of the server at most times) not dedicating the couple minutes it takes to get to 22k ft and just taking refuge in the lower populated airbase areas, or they've probably attempted the climb, made contact with 109, then watched it zoom up even then and got frustrated.

Cause and effect. Players are going to "game the game" unless encouraged to do otherwise. I'm hoping Wolf's new mission will alleviate this base-babysitting/base vulching mentality, and we can finally put the "Battle of Hawkinge" mission behind us.

I disagree. The battle of hawkinge as you put it, is because most reds, not all, spawn at the front line bases. That makes easy pickings for a cannon equipped 109 hovering above. The reason this accumulates and turns into the hawkinge show is because more reds spawn in at hawkinge to try to get the low flying 109 that was already there because of the decision of the red pilot to spawn at hawkinge in the 1st place. People's bad decisions shouldn't be blamed on mission design. Every single red pilot could take off and get to 20K without ever a thought of a 109 in the vicinity during the entire climb if they really wanted to. There's more than enough airfields spread out all over England to do just that.

The same can be applied for the 109 fields. I generally take off quite a bit inland so by the time I reach the coast of France I'm already at 4-5km at altitude. Actually most of the 109's I fly with on coms generally take off inland as well.

I do agree that the FMs are not the greatest, but at altitude, real altitude, the spit performs much better than it does on the deck, where as the 109 starts performing a lot worse. The higher the engagement the more even (not saying it's even) the better for a spitfire.

Altitude also takes flak/AAA completely out of the picture. So my suggestion is to simply not spawn anywhere near the front lines. When everyone on red figures this out, there won't be anyone at hawkinge for the blues to shoot at.

[JTDawg]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

I disagree. The battle of hawkinge as you put it, is because most reds, not all, spawn at the front line bases. That makes easy pickings for a cannon equipped 109 hovering above. The reason this accumulates and turns into the hawkinge show is because more reds spawn in at hawkinge to try to get the low flying 109 that was already there because of the decision of the red pilot to spawn at hawkinge in the 1st place. People's bad decisions shouldn't be blamed on mission design. Every single red pilot could take off and get to 20K without ever a thought of a 109 in the vicinity during the entire climb if they really wanted to. There's more than enough airfields spread out all over England to do just that.

The same can be applied for the 109 fields. I generally take off quite a bit inland so by the time I reach the coast of France I'm already at 4-5km at altitude. Actually most of the 109's I fly with on coms generally take off inland as well.

I do agree that the FMs are not the greatest, but at altitude, real altitude, the spit performs much better than it does on the deck, where as the 109 starts performing a lot worse. The higher the engagement the more even (not saying it's even) the better for a spitfire.

Altitude also takes flak/AAA completely out of the picture. So my suggestion is to simply not spawn anywhere near the front lines. When everyone on red figures this out, there won't be anyone at hawkinge for the blues to shoot at.

+1 I have really been enjoying the high level flying with the new maps , The 71st squad an others we fly with go high !! ( even at 20,000 seems low ,them bad guys ) It is great fun to see a large bomber formation come into view. (then when you can make them out we start counting 109s above them ) Then ts erupts with the number 4 5 6 I SEE 6 (Was doggles an his crew i believe ) Then the jockying for position ( we should have been 22,000) Any way , then it starts (bombers already forgotten about ) Then the call out HE IS ROLLING DOWN ON ME !!!! AND I'M ON HIM HE MISSED ME . And the dance has begun ( i'm thinking i wonder if AN squad is on) While a 109 is trying to hammer head me !! Again, but last pass i got hits on him. ( wow those 88mm cannon rounds almost got me ) It's my story! After what seemed to be for ever. The Dance is almost over, sixes being cleared , Guys saying i;m all red .And many a good pilots being lost from both sides. We land respawn (those that died giggle giggle ) Then it's time to do it again , to repeat the whole thing again (this time at 24,000) Them bad guys!! As we climb up laughing and joking about the carnage ,We just incountered!!! Plain fun It just puts a big smile on your face when you get your special kill!!!! ( normally the guy that pked you) YEAH!! Any who , THANKS ATAG!! BIG SALUTE!! Dawg PS I like lots of flak hell you can even add some to my plane!! (those bad guys lol)

[Robo.]

Yeah 20k seems to be not enough lately. I like it. Good show yesterday.

[David198502]

a few days ago, i think there was a new mission on atag...we spotted a big formation(bigger than normally seen on atag) of german bombers north of manston at +5000meters.i have not seen this before on atag.
we headed towards them and saw a group of spits, it was "our" guys from ACG who attacked the bombers.so we engaged and had a really good fight at 5000meters.
i really like those "high" altitude fights.there it seems to be way more even, and suddenly skill is demanded in a 109.

btw, has anybody now after one and a half years after the release, thought about a mission with bombers heading towards london???
i mean, i have a really weak machine, but have no problem whatsoever to fly on rooftop level above london.i would really like to escort bombers to different locations then the usual ones....the "atag zone" gets really boring now.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by David198502

a few days ago, i think there was a new mission on atag...we spotted a big formation(bigger than normally seen on atag) of german bombers north of manston at +5000meters.i have not seen this before on atag.
we headed towards them and saw a group of spits, it was "our" guys from ACG who attacked the bombers.so we engaged and had a really good fight at 5000meters.
i really like those "high" altitude fights.there it seems to be way more even, and suddenly skill is demanded in a 109.

btw, has anybody now after one and a half years after the release, thought about a mission with bombers heading towards london???
i mean, i have a really weak machine, but have no problem whatsoever to fly on rooftop level above london.i would really like to escort bombers to different locations then the usual ones....the "atag zone" gets really boring now.

German bombers running the gauntlet with multiple waves of RAF fighters trrying to stop them would be quite cool.

So If you intercepted from your base at Manston and had to bail, would you be able to take off from Eastchurch and be able to get enough height to have a second go at them? Croyden for the third go? Hmmm! could we get the height?

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

I disagree. The battle of hawkinge as you put it, is because most reds, not all, spawn at the front line bases. That makes easy pickings for a cannon equipped 109 hovering above. The reason this accumulates and turns into the hawkinge show is because more reds spawn in at hawkinge to try to get the low flying 109 that was already there because of the decision of the red pilot to spawn at hawkinge in the 1st place. People's bad decisions shouldn't be blamed on mission design. Every single red pilot could take off and get to 20K without ever a thought of a 109 in the vicinity during the entire climb if they really wanted to. There's more than enough airfields spread out all over England to do just that.

The same can be applied for the 109 fields. I generally take off quite a bit inland so by the time I reach the coast of France I'm already at 4-5km at altitude. Actually most of the 109's I fly with on coms generally take off inland as well.

I do agree that the FMs are not the greatest, but at altitude, real altitude, the spit performs much better than it does on the deck, where as the 109 starts performing a lot worse. The higher the engagement the more even (not saying it's even) the better for a spitfire.

Altitude also takes flak/AAA completely out of the picture. So my suggestion is to simply not spawn anywhere near the front lines. When everyone on red figures this out, there won't be anyone at hawkinge for the blues to shoot at.

Actually, you're not disagreeing with me at all...just talking about something different in half of your post. I agree with what you're saying completely here. Reds love throwing their aircraft into the meat grinder for some reason despite constant efforts to rally or strategize the mindless uncollectiveness. I am not one of those, mind you...10k ft is my MINIMUM engagement/first contact altitude in any sortie.

The battle of Hawkinge...I'm not saying this is bad mission design by common definition, but it's a condition that hasn't been addressed effectively, so affords some sort of fault to the mission design simply because it's a misallocation of resources and motivation to get those "meat-grinder" pilots away from the deathmatch areas and start engaging in a proper flight SIMULATOR fashion. I understand what the mission designer was trying to accomplish, but that's not what is happening. It's like trying to make a irrigation ditch with the intentions of routing water around the Eastern side of your house, implementing your planned dig route, then when the water escapes and flows on the Western side of your house you just stare at it and say, "Well, this isn't what's SUPPOSED to happen."...that isn't going to fix the issue. We all know the problem, now the next step is to find the solution. The players are "gaming the game", so now the mission builders need to "game the game" right back to balance it out.

Example, there's not a lot, well...enough motivation and emphasis right now on objectives for the common non-regular player, whether that be to go bomb something (which is not on the common Red pilot's mind/agenda...we only have one buggy bomber), escort AI bombers (no real reason to other than hopes to find other enemy fighters, possibly exacerbating the air-quake mentality issue) defend a grid/building from bombers, etc. If there was a constant stream of AI bombers attacking each Army's *vital, round winning objectives* and actually had purpose there would be constant pressure to take out bomber formations and get pilots off the airfields and onto escorting/intercept missions. As I see it right now, AI bombers are fairly immaterial and just serve as target practice and/or a stage for a high altitude contact scenario with their escorts, if applicable, and go to the wayside never to be seen again after the engagement.

This is a matter of a mission designer providing motivation to do the fun, interactive and balanced activities this simulator has to offer (bombing runs, escorts, interception, recon), meanwhile discouraging the less desirable, unfair, unbalanced activities (vulching, base raping, unrealistic altitude engagements, lone wolfing, "gaming the game"). Stuff like Wolf's Channel Command seems promising with missions on demand, limited aircraft supply (this will be a big one, as it will discourage unrealistic/unsportmanlike bailing out/crashing to skip the flight home), random AI fighter engagements, etc.

Bliss you seem to turn a blind eye to the current mission's faults and have repeatedly cited the pilots as the issue (did you make it yourself or something?), while I don't disagree with you, the pilot's actions are not something that is going to change because of forum posts. Said pilot's actions are a constant. We cannot force or change them, but the mission parameters in-game can. It can be something complicated like an aircraft supply system, or a simple on-screen notification of a formation of bomber's location heading toward a critical mission objective...Or ailerons falling off of an aircraft upon spawn because you don't want to deal with that aircraft in the sky, you big blue babies .

[Warhound]

All i'm going to say about it is that you can do everything you just suggested as missionmaker, and those players you mentioned will still do exactly what they are doing now.
That is play low level airquake, occasionally intercept a bomber they run into and in general not care about the mission at all. Once the plane(s) they prefer are depleted they will complain a bit and then disconnect.

Now you can argue those players aren't wanted anyway..but seeing as they make up half or more of the players online at times, I'd prefer to have them present.
Just consider them as new pilots (and thus easy targets) and try to convert a few into missionfocused pilots.
Help with their questions, encourage them to hop on teamspeak and wing up. With luck a few will eventually join TS, see the light and turn into great wingmen and even fligthleaders.

Afterall I think most of us started as random players just wanting to fly and shoot at something.
And even many IL-2 vets rarely did anything but play on servers/coops with 3rd person and icons enabled..so it's a big transition for many to play on full switch servers.

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

I disagree. The battle of hawkinge as you put it, is because most reds, not all, spawn at the front line bases. That makes easy pickings for a cannon equipped 109 hovering above. The reason this accumulates and turns into the hawkinge show is because more reds spawn in at hawkinge to try to get the low flying 109 that was already there because of the decision of the red pilot to spawn at hawkinge in the 1st place. People's bad decisions shouldn't be blamed on mission design. Every single red pilot could take off and get to 20K without ever a thought of a 109 in the vicinity during the entire climb if they really wanted to. There's more than enough airfields spread out all over England to do just that.

The same can be applied for the 109 fields. I generally take off quite a bit inland so by the time I reach the coast of France I'm already at 4-5km at altitude. Actually most of the 109's I fly with on coms generally take off inland as well.

I do agree that the FMs are not the greatest, but at altitude, real altitude, the spit performs much better than it does on the deck, where as the 109 starts performing a lot worse. The higher the engagement the more even (not saying it's even) the better for a spitfire.

Altitude also takes flak/AAA completely out of the picture. So my suggestion is to simply not spawn anywhere near the front lines. When everyone on red figures this out, there won't be anyone at hawkinge for the blues to shoot at.

Also, the "easy pickings" attraction of the front lines base would be nullified if there were more severe consequences for entering that airspace, like a guaranteed 15 sec max survivability chance due to AA damage, no fly zone. This would force the fight at least off shore a bit, which in turn would open up the possibility for the fight to move farther out and into the rest of the map. If Red or Blue still used AA as a safe zone to hide in, that would leave the rest of the objectives completely unguarded to bomb/capture/whatever for the opposing team, so the overall mission feel would inherit a "if you hide you lose, be pro-active you win" sense which we need, imo.