Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Crumpp]

The Stability and Control characteristics of the early marque Spitfires are well defined and measureable across multiple sources, the RAE, NACA, and post war stability and control engineering text's.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The Stability and Control characteristics of the early marque Spitfires are well defined and measureable across multiple sources, the RAE, NACA, and post war stability and control engineering text's.

As are the views of those who flew it

[Crumpp]

As are the views of those who flew it

Subjective opinion, unmeasureable, and without definition...

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Subjective opinion, unmeasureable, and without definition...

Possibly, quite possibly, but the problem with post war studies are precisely that, they are post war. The benchmarks that apply post war are often not the same benchmarks that apply during a war. Even during a war, there are sometimes differences between what the engineers believe to be acceptable and what the people on the front line believe to be acceptable.

This is probably the main difference between us.

[Crumpp]

the problem with post war studies are precisely that, they are post war.

The NACA study was not post war....

The RAE Operating Notes warnings were not post war.....

Gates attempts to get the RAE on a measureable standard were not post war.....

He wrote over 130 papers during his career on stability and control. A significant portion of them were written during the war attempting to convince his colleagues at the Air Ministry to adopt measureable standards.

In fact, Gates stability margin criteria were part of the NACA's standards!!! Gates developed the "Aerodynamic Center" which would replace the obsolete "center of pressure".

All of Gates findings agreed with the NACA's conclusions!

He and Gilruth were good friends. In his 1942 visit to the NACA, Gilruth hosted Gates.

One of his sources for the development of the following table is the basis of the NACA standards!!

Gilruth . .Requirements for Satisfactory Flying Qualities of Airplanes•
N.A.C.A. Advance Report A.R'.C. 5543.

Just as a chart of speed or climb performance shows us how the aircraft should perform, the plots of acceleration forces over velocity tell us how the aircraft performs in abrupt maneuvers.

For satisfactory stability and control, a pilot is able to precisely control the accelerations on the aircraft.

This is not what the plots show for the Spitfire. The accelerations vary wildly as the pilot is unable to precisely control them.

[Crumpp]

This is probably the main difference between us.

It is a fantasy world to think the physical world will change because your scared and your life is being threatenend. The reality is you will just do something dumb and make the enemies job of killing you easier.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

For satisfactory stability and control, a pilot is able to precisely control the accelerations on the aircraft.

This is not what the plots show for the Spitfire. The accelerations vary wildly as the pilot is unable to precisely control them.

Then you need to explain why if in theory the pilot is unable to precisely control them, did all the pilots I have read about, of all nations, praise the Spits handling abilities.

It is a fundamental difference and I would appreciate it if you could explain this conundrum.


Re this statement
It is a fantasy world to think the physical world will change because your scared and your life is being threatenend. The reality is you will just do something dumb and make the enemies job of killing you easier.

Its rubbish, I can think of a half dozen examples where the rules that apply in war did not apply in peace and / or where the theorists during the war were at odds wiith the people in the front line.
You are firmly in the theorists area,

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Glider

Then you need to explain why if in theory the pilot is unable to precisely control them, did all the pilots I have read about, of all nations, praise the Spits handling abilities.

Did you really read many of them talking specifically about the production model mk I & II ? because that's what we are talking abt here.

You'd certainly read it everywhere about the Hurri an the 109.

Just remind the heavy losses young Spit pilots did have to suffer compared to their Hurri colleagues.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Glider

Re this statement

Its rubbish, I can think of a half dozen examples where the rules that apply in war did not apply in peace and / or where the theorists during the war were at odds wiith the people in the front line.
You are firmly in the theorists area,

There are rules, which are made by people, and there are physical laws which come with the universe (what or who made that being an unknown), you are talking about rules being broken in war, which happens, what does not happen is the universe being bent out of shape just for the wars of puny humans on a microscopic planet.