SoWC:BoB Multisquad Campaign Starting

[David198502]

well read my post again

[Osprey]

I said I wouldn't post but since it is campaign I will. I just wanted to make the point that although I helped with the radar, and Farber quotes correctly, I did protest about having it destroyed because that is just complete balls. It actually makes me reluctant to even use it because I know how easy it is to destroy, and to make matters worse I learn today that the mission sends 3 AI to each site to do the job - it's just not possible to stop it's destruction at all. To put it in perspective, ACG run the events of August 12th on our server which is all about the radar attacks, we scale it down to just 20% of the actual aircraft in the raids but there are still 9 Ju88's coming across to hit Ventnor alone. Germany brought it down for about 2 hours at great cost, and that was because a single bomb had hit one of the electrical supply thingies. 2 hours was because GB had mobile RDF trucks which could be moved to plug gaps. After the Ventnor attack Georing sent a Stuka raid into the Thames Estuary following reports from Erpo210 that they were successful, and that was massacred by No.501 from Gravesend. It is then that Georing started to rethink about tackling RDF. Since the radar was hit then on Sunday then 501 had no idea that Do-17's were inbound to Gravesend, which is a great shame because we were covering that area until vectored to the Stuka attack, and we arrived too late, only to meet 109's milling about, dominating of course, you'd have to be a bad flyer not to with these FM's.

Regarding the number of E4's and Spitfires. Do you have the actual figures Farber? Only I saw about 90% E4's - it's not as if they even need then given the advantage the 109 has atm.
I don't buy the 'availability' argument I'm afraid, squadrons should have a percentage or you tell squadrons what to take. It's poor form to just take it and say that so and so isn't here so I will take his better plane. The RAF work this out as a group and aim for a 2/3rds Hurricane split, we can't be entirely accurate because we aren't mixing types in a single flight though.

Also, you mentioned altitude, well Stuka's dive from 3km+ and that's not very high, they are our targets, and then they get low. I would recommend 4km+ level bombers coming in at a target in waves, we're all more likely to get a shot then, and we should be at a better operating alt (probably not though with this junk FM!).

Positively I enjoyed our flight out as a group and we learned some lessons from it as a group, it was interesting training. Haven't seen a single bomber yet though.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

S! mate. I am very much aware of that and it's really really appreciated. I can imagine how much effort it takes to keep things running etc. I am also aware that you can't please everyone and I am the last one to complain - as I said perhaps slightly bigger scale than last time, e.g. some medium bombers raids. (I take it it was just quieter day with fighters on Free Hunt and some Stukas the other day.) I know this is due to performance issues and there is no way around. We're at Mission 4 only and I just wait and enjoy. With few more missions, we'll know more and I will certainly give you some more specific feedback. So far just thanks for your work chaps, see you on Sunday

Gotcha ok! Yes It really is a shame we have to use these small formations.

Originally Posted by klem

Thanks for considering our requests Farber and giving us the SpitIIa...

NP

Originally Posted by klem

...I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders....

9 E4's is the table for July - Mission 1. Im not sure if the tables in the OP contain the +10% to account for spawn deaths etc. I will look into it though.

Originally Posted by klem

With 24 stukas breaking up into several groups plus Do17s and attacking 4 targets we have to accept that we cannot intercept every raid....

What Do17's? Not every raid was intercepted...

Originally Posted by klem

...We have the unfortunate problem of trying to deal with 24 Stukas plus ? Do17s that went to Gravesend ...

We (5./JG27) were flying 109's not Do17's. As far as I am aware we went deepest into enemy terrortry lloking for the spits, which we pressumed, would be getting altitude and comming back to the coast.

Originally Posted by klem

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

Yes they would have stayed around to "feed". It was not until toward the later part of August and into September that the fighters become true escorts. Before this time a Frei-Jagd screen was thrown up just as we are doing.

Originally Posted by klem

EDIT: I meant to say that you are destroying Radar easily but in fact it was very hard to destroy even when undefended. It was bady damaged on 12th August when the radar stations were a main priority but as they came back on air again on the 13th I understand that the major anti-radar operation of 12 August was not repeated. A few days later, Göring is said to have stated,
“It is doubtful whether there is any point in continuing the attacks on radar sites, in view of the fact that not one of those attacked has so far been put out of action.”
Any further radar attacks failed to make significant damage to the radar system. I wonder if your future radar attacks should be severely restricted or perhaps even stopped as in RL they were ineffective whilst in CoD they are too easy to destroy.

Thats a very cunning way of trying to find the date out Klem I'll give you that!

I can tell you the dates and time of every mission after the campaign and you can confirm it. How is that?





About the number of aircraft, Bliss is Correct. Once you get 40 players + large AI formations are not an option unless you want to play the game by postcard.

Originally Posted by Osprey

I said I wouldn't post but since it is campaign I will. I just wanted to make the point that although I helped with the radar, and Farber quotes correctly, I did protest about having it destroyed because that is just complete balls...

No its not and I remeber at the time showing you sources to this effect. It was the towers that were hard to destroy! Generators, power lines, telephone lines etc were disabled and the CH stations where out at some points, it IS A FACT! They were quickly repared or mobile units where rushed in to "plug the gap". I will gladly present my sources at the end of the campaign.

Originally Posted by Osprey

Regarding the number of E4's and Spitfires. Do you have the actual figures Farber? Only I saw about 90% E4's - it's not as if they even need then given the advantage the 109 has atm.
I don't buy the 'availability' argument I'm afraid, squadrons should have a percentage or you tell squadrons what to take. It's poor form to just take it and say that so and so isn't here so I will take his better plane. The RAF work this out as a group and aim for a 2/3rds Hurricane split, we can't be entirely accurate because we aren't mixing types in a single flight though.

I will repeat myself... No I have not looked at the actually figures, I am too busy responding to posts on 1c. I have already presented the reasons why. If you are not buying it thats convient because Im not selling it mate. As far as I am aware the squadrons on that list should not excede the values given on it and the whole team cannot excede the values in the script limiting aircraft.

As I said, if you can work it out where everyone knows what they are flying before hand and get the percentile mix right please do share. I can see you not happy but your not providing a solution.

Originally Posted by Osprey

Also, you mentioned altitude, well Stuka's dive from 3km+ and that's not very high, they are our targets, and then they get low. I would recommend 4km+ level bombers coming in at a target in waves, we're all more likely to get a shot then, and we should be at a better operating alt (probably not though with this junk FM!).

Altitudes have taken from the history books of those specific raids. Dont blame me, blame the LW.

Originally Posted by Osprey

Positively I enjoyed our flight out as a group and we learned some lessons from it as a group...

Great!

[David198502]

not quite true Farber..Pitti and me headed towards Littlestone, then further north, then we made a wide right turn until we were north west and north of Gravesend.there we shot down 4Hurris of No.501...so we went in quite deep as well...though it was a shame, that we didnt encounter any other contacts...only when we were already on our way home, we saw two spits above Dover, who eventually escaped in the end...

[Osprey]

3 actually David, it's no wonder Georing thought he was winning lol

Farber, please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying. I gave a solution, that is one of honour, that your guys get together before the mission and decide who flies what, more or less. That's what we are doing in the RAF. What is happening from what you are saying is that you have a limit on E4's and that first in grabs one if they can? Why not start with the E-1's and as they run out grab E-4's since it is innocuous....... Another solution and one that is more historically accurate is that you tell each leader that they can have amongst their groups 50% E4s, 10% E3's and remainder E1's (or whatever percentage). They can then sort that out according to how many turn up. What's the use in posting those percentages if you aren't able to stick with them? All the same I'd like to see the raw numbers, COD is too rubbish to even allow viewing of a second stats page!

Regardless of whether RDF was taken out or not does not matter, the fact that it took a large raid to do it and they were unsuccessful most of the time doesn't mean that sending 3 stuka's to each and being successful is in any way a reflection on history. For instance, Ventnor required the entire group of KG76 and KG26 supported by ZG2, JG52, JG1 (top of my head, prolly got some squadrons wrong), the raid was 100+ just for one site. If you want to do that then fine, perhaps we can just change our tactics to have 1 squadron circling each RDF site (there are only 5) and we'll bag 15 no problem, which is better than what we've managed so far OK, I'm far more of a cynic than klem, I know it'll rub you up the wrong way and I don't mean to do that, but essentially klem and I are saying the same thing about this

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Farber, please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying. I gave a solution...

Not really, not like below!

Originally Posted by Osprey

-solution and one that is more historically accurate is that you tell each leader that they can have amongst their groups 50% E4s, 10% E3's and remainder E1's (or whatever percentage). They can then sort that out according to how many turn up.

I like it. You are asking people to do maths 5 mins before we start and in what way should they round - up or down? In fact I request if you want this system in use you provide a table of %'s for August and July for every number from 1 to 14 for easy refrence.

Originally Posted by Osprey

What's the use in posting those percentages if you aren't able to stick with them? All the same I'd like to see the raw numbers, COD is too rubbish to even allow viewing of a second stats page!

Above this post^
I did it quick might be off a bit but good enough.

Originally Posted by Osprey

Regardless of whether RDF was taken out or not does not matter, the fact that it took a large raid to do it and they were unsuccessful most of the time doesn't mean that sending 3 stuka's to each and being successful is in any way a reflection on history. For instance, Ventnor required the entire group of KG76 and KG26 supported by ZG2, JG52, JG1 (top of my head, prolly got some squadrons wrong), the raid was 100+ just for one site. If you want to do that then fine, perhaps we can just change our tactics to have 1 squadron circling each RDF site (there are only 5) and we'll bag 15 no problem, which is better than what we've managed so far OK, I'm far more of a cynic than klem,

Net code, cant have to many bombers or people complain like mission 2. Do you even read everything in this thread?

Originally Posted by Osprey

I know it'll rub you up the wrong way and I don't mean to do that...

You love it.

[David198502]

Originally Posted by Osprey

3 actually David, it's no wonder Georing thought he was winning lol

Farber, please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying. I gave a solution, that is one of honour, that your guys get together before the mission and decide who flies what, more or less. That's what we are doing in the RAF. What is happening from what you are saying is that you have a limit on E4's and that first in grabs one if they can? Why not start with the E-1's and as they run out grab E-4's since it is innocuous....... Another solution and one that is more historically accurate is that you tell each leader that they can have amongst their groups 50% E4s, 10% E3's and remainder E1's (or whatever percentage). They can then sort that out according to how many turn up. What's the use in posting those percentages if you aren't able to stick with them? All the same I'd like to see the raw numbers, COD is too rubbish to even allow viewing of a second stats page!

Regardless of whether RDF was taken out or not does not matter, the fact that it took a large raid to do it and they were unsuccessful most of the time doesn't mean that sending 3 stuka's to each and being successful is in any way a reflection on history. For instance, Ventnor required the entire group of KG76 and KG26 supported by ZG2, JG52, JG1 (top of my head, prolly got some squadrons wrong), the raid was 100+ just for one site. If you want to do that then fine, perhaps we can just change our tactics to have 1 squadron circling each RDF site (there are only 5) and we'll bag 15 no problem, which is better than what we've managed so far OK, I'm far more of a cynic than klem, I know it'll rub you up the wrong way and I don't mean to do that, but essentially klem and I are saying the same thing about this

no Osprey 4 all in all, i shot down 3 of you, and Pitti got Teepee i think.

[5./JG27.Farber]

I cant wait for Osprey's aircraft distibution cards!

[Osprey]

1: Chill out
2: The maths is remedial. A ballpark figure would be fine, there's no need to be a tit about it, we just pointed out that most of your aircraft were E4's and you've confirmed that (18 out of 23).

The logic and rules are clear but doesn't hit reality remotely. It's fine, we're (RAF) only asking because it was obvious and that's really to be expected. It just means that next week we'll fill our Spitfire II allocation first before anybody jumps in a Hurricane

Why don't you guys like the E1 anyway? It's got 1 minute of guns to spend on easy Hurricanes and is camouflaged. I'd take it.

@David, don't spoil it mate, I had to tell AVM Keith Park that we were bounced by a squadron or he'd send us all off to an OTU !

[5./JG27.Farber]

Upon Osprey's "request" here we go:

• The first number not in brackets is the number of players which took that aircraft on sunday.
  
• The second number in brackets is the total number of that type available based on a full team!
  
• The first percentile in brackets is the percentile of the force that showed up.
  
• The second percentile is the percentage of the composition of a full team!

RED TEAM 34 Players:

Hurricanes 23 out of 33* ( 68% out of 66% ) - unlimited type but added for completeness
Spitfires 11 out of 17* ( 32% out of 34% )

1% = 2.941

BLUE TEAM 23 Players:

Bf109 E1 4 out of 20* ( 17% out of 40% ) - unlimited type but added for completeness
Bf109 E3 1 out of 5* ( 4% out of 4% )
Bf109 E4 18 out of 25* ( 78% out of 52% )

1% = 4.348


*10% ( rounded up ) was added to the originally maximums for spawn deaths etc.


So as we can see at first glance:

WOW LOOK AT ALL THE E4's AND THERES TOO MANY HURRICANES! - but its fine! - because the system is based on a FULL TEAM of 45 players a side!

You will also see that all values of player flown aircraft (not in brackets) NEVER exceeded the mission total.

We are not trying to hit the percentile values exactly - its impossible! We are only trying to limit the maximum composition of a force of a full team.

Our system isnt based on the number of people that show up but of a full team on each side as this is the only realistic method we can enforce.



We would love to have the exact composition!

If you can devise a system that is better please let me know!


I really hope this makes sense because I really dont have time to explain it.