Is the main issue with 1C the lack of communication? Feedback = Consideration for us?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN

I'd like to say I wont buy the next one till I "wait and see" but who am I kidding... l love WWII air combat

Exactally!

I mean it would be one thing if this was the mid 1990 aka the hey-day of PC flight sims..

Where we had choices in flight sims.. ala Dynamix (RB, AOTP, AOE), MICROPROSE (PAW1942, EAW), Spectrun Holobyte (Falcon 3.0), LucasArts (SWOTL), etc..

But we don't!

The hey-day of flight sims has long since passed..

Game makers and those who invest in games realised a long time ago that flight sims are a nitch market.. Read not alot of money to be made there..

Thus the only people who do them these days are those who just love what they do and know that there are a few who love what they do and will buy thier product, thus filling the nitch!

But I fear this CoD experance is going to drive away the few flight sim makers left in that the customers these days are far less willing to work with them like they were in the past and far more demanding and expect prefection when prefection can and never will be reached by anyone

[simast]

Originally Posted by Pudfark

If I may add this?

"Or Luthier to give a reasonable explanation of events and time lines for the next several months."

Please no time estimates, that will only make it worse as the developers never met a single deadline.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Tiger27

That may have been the case once,

That is your opinion and your welcome to it.. But based on my 20+ years of flight simming and hanging out in flight simming forums I have found what I said to be true.. Granted gamming has changed in the past 20 years but human nature has not.. Which is why what I said still stands

[catito14]

Originally Posted by mysticpuma

i have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "dear luthier/black6/1c, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as i am aware the complete opposite is evident from the rof forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the rof community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (i know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of clod players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original il2 can see that clod was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the flight sim community (ww2 combat of-course). For this reason i think so-many have been disappointed (i appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in graphics and realism for the ww2 combat community. As it currently stands for many players (i appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, i honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a pc all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the friday updates (actually any updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the top ten issues for users and the top ten that surely the developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the clod software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/blogs/

trust me when i say that this is not a rof thread, this is a thread i hope can stir a little passion in the development team to understand that i (i hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1c, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for clod.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much i typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing clod rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope i have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, mp

+111111111

[Skoshi Tiger]

I think the biggest communication problems and the biggest turn off for potential customers is the lack of updates of the official web site. Now I understand that that page is owned by the publishers and the Developers don't have access to it, but when you go to a site and that hasn't changed in a year, I wouldn't be looking any further.

Surely it is their job (part of advertising and selling the game) to sift through all the crap and reporting the positve developments that have occured. (yes there have been some!)

What are they actually doing for their money?

It would also be a good place for a development blog where the developers have post their vision for the future of the series without continual attack.

Maybe that is not possible at the official but how about a locked thread for developers? (not an original idea - the seperate update discussion thread is a positive move but the update theread should be for Developers only)

The only problem I have with people venting their spleen here is that it obscures all the positives, and their is no incentive for the developers to express their creative idea's.


(Any way I'm off for a week at the beach house - no internet). Hope to come back to a New patch/updates/more positive forum.

Cheers!

[csThor]

Originally Posted by Mysticpuma

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

Ever seen a dog trying to walk on his two hind legs? Like those dogs in the circus? I've seen that, but it only worked for a few seconds, then the dog reverted to moving on his four legs (his natural way of moving).

Trying to talk luthier into constant and meaningful communication is just like trying to teach a dog how to move on two legs only. It may work for a few seconds but it will always remain an unnatural way of moving - just like comminicating and doing PR-stuff is going against luthier's nature. He's a "Don't disturb me, I'm working on something" kind of guy who'd love nothing more than work on his Q.T. without being bothered. He doesn't like publicity, he doesn't like having to talk about his work, to explain his ideas and concepts. The way I see it the poor BlackSix is the fig leaf who has to appease the crowd with a few crumbs ...

I don't expect anything from MG in this department anymore, the times of Oleg are over and are not going to come back.

[FS~Phat]

Originally Posted by Mysticpuma

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.


Cheers, MP

Nicely put Mystic. I have made a new sticky for people to post their questions.
I hope to get some of them addressed but not all of them I expect will be addressed to your satisfaction. (everyones)

I hope by putting a little bit of effort and structure around your questions that we will get some of the answers we are looking for.

Keeping in mind it is unlikely we will get a response to everything and I think probably unreasonable to expect so.

Some of the questions still need to be asked even if they have no decision or timeframe yet but please be understanding that some things just cant be given answers because they either havent got around to assessing it because its not a priority or because they need to wait for the announcement of the sequel and around the MMO aspects before further information can be provided.

That and the fact that software development is not strictly science, its a bit of a black art, mixed with science and creativity so its unfortunately not as simple as 1+1=2.

As I have also mentioned prior it is also hard and takes a lot of time for the translation from English to Russian, for these things to be tabled and discussed with the team and then translated back from Russian to English.

It is more important that the team work on the patch and sequel than spend time appeasing everyones various foibles with the game, and it's also a privilege not a right to have communication from the developer on the forum.

Constructive Questions please.. I will be harsh with anyone in breach of the rules as I have made it very clear! >> http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33120

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Mysticpuma

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

Yep...good post MP

[Pluto]

to quote:

Sorry if this all sounds a bit rough, but the constant bashing of people who voice their opinions because they're not happy is really getting old.

Do you honestly think there would be this much "whining" if the product actually worked?
__________________

agree 100 % !

Everyone here who is not pleased and writes it, is considered as a whiner or troll and gets instantly bashed by the f...... fanboys here or even banned by the admins cause they only like yeasayers.

No need to apologize for anything mate!

[FS~Phat]

Originally Posted by Pluto

to quote:

Sorry if this all sounds a bit rough, but the constant bashing of people who voice their opinions because they're not happy is really getting old.

Do you honestly think there would be this much "whining" if the product actually worked?
__________________

agree 100 % !

Everyone here who is not pleased and writes it, is considered as a whiner or troll and gets instantly bashed by the f...... fanboys here or even banned by the admins cause they only like yeasayers.

No need to apologize for anything mate!

Im sorry you see it that way but we dont ban just for the fun of it you know.
As has been said before, constructive criticism is welcomed. Its the bashing and non-factual comments and abuse that get people into trouble. Be careful with those kinds of comments as your walking a thin line there mate. I at times myself am critical of development and support well thought out discussions about issues, just as I have for Mystic's mature approach. Its a potential hornets nest but he has made some relevant points without attacking anyone or being rude and disrespectful. He too is also walking a thin line but it's his thought and consideration that has him on the right side of the line!