Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Flanker35M]

S!


What I am saying Manu is that there are average pilots that could not get the most out of their plane no matter how accurately it was modelled. They might not be bad sticks but maybe their SA is not the best or some situations just are too much for them to handle. I am talking about PERSONAL abilities here, not the FM or whatever. You can give an idiot the best tool in the world and he could do nothing with it when a more talented guy would do wonders even with a less good tool. Got the pic?

I've seen over the years many complainers how overmodelled something is and when proven wrong you are a cheater. Again nothing to do with FM or whatever but PERSONAL abilities. Boom and Zoom whereas Turn and Burn BOTH require skill to get good results and not yourself killed. And again the FM has nothing to do with it, but how YOU can handle the situation. You are given a tool, make the best use of it in the situation. Learn how to use it properly.

So I think that if we got FM/DM/CEM/Whatever well done as the CORE of the game then ALL would have a good chance to become a proficient pilot. In current situation there are too many things making some planes better over some due limitations of the game, not the player. But remember that some pilots EXPECT a Spitfire or a Bf109 of that matter to do what they THINK it should, from whatever experience they get it from(books, discussions, programs, insert source here). And it is easy to come here screaming how shit plane A is over plane B when the fault is 99% between the chair and stick. Do not EXPECT but LEARN. Then you will be the ace of all times or whatever or you will just enjoy the game even more.

So basically..Devs should make the CORE (FM/DM/CEM/whatever) of the game rock solid. After that the rest is up to the player and his own abilities, not the game limitation. I hope I made myself clear in a positive way

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

You can give an idiot the best tool in the world and he could do nothing with it when a more talented guy would do wonders even with a less good tool. Got the pic?

Have had the pic for some time now..

In that Chuck sumed it up nicly so many years ago when he said..

Originally Posted by Chuck Yeager

It's the man not the machine

[6S.Manu]

Forgive me if I'm multi-quoting you post

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

What I am saying Manu is that there are average pilots that could not get the most out of their plane no matter how accurately it was modelled. They might not be bad sticks but maybe their SA is not the best or some situations just are too much for them to handle. I am talking about PERSONAL abilities here, not the FM or whatever. You can give an idiot the best tool in the world and he could do nothing with it when a more talented guy would do wonders even with a less good tool. Got the pic?

I totally agree with you. I don't think to have said something different.

I'm all for a sim in which pilot's skill is far more important than plane's performance. IL2 is not one but still it's the best out there (the 4.11 patch is great btw!)

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

I've seen over the years many complainers how overmodelled something is and when proven wrong you are a cheater. Again nothing to do with FM or whatever but PERSONAL abilities. Boom and Zoom whereas Turn and Burn BOTH require skill to get good results and not yourself killed. And again the FM has nothing to do with it, but how YOU can handle the situation. You are given a tool, make the best use of it in the situation. Learn how to use it properly.

But the tools given to you are different: there is not a single plane, and every plane have different performace and behaviours. You have "to learn" how use it properly because only in this way you can handle the situation as you said. The relative perfomance of the plane is the thing that dictate you tactic, your engagement, your actions and reactions.

And this has a lot to do with FM. IMO. This is why in a 1v1 I lose against one guy but I win if we switch planes. Both we can fly at the same way, but on plane performes better than the other.

This is the reason I think that skill is higher for the ones who fly not friendly planes... because, against a pilot of the same experience (but in a friendly plane, call it easy planes, as 109F4 or G2 in IL2) he's going to have his a$$ kicked... once, twice, 10 times until he "learn" that he has not to do and, at last, how to fight. Luckly for him he's a virtual pilot so he can learn dying.

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

So I think that if we got FM/DM/CEM/Whatever well done as the CORE of the game then ALL would have a good chance to become a proficient pilot. In current situation there are too many things making some planes better over some due limitations of the game, not the player. But remember that some pilots EXPECT a Spitfire or a Bf109 of that matter to do what they THINK it should, from whatever experience they get it from(books, discussions, programs, insert source here). And it is easy to come here screaming how shit plane A is over plane B when the fault is 99% between the chair and stick. Do not EXPECT but LEARN. Then you will be the ace of all times or whatever or you will just enjoy the game even more.

I think "Do not EXPECT but LEARN" is a great sentence.

So your plane is a little slower than the historical one... the why you still try to fly it in the wrong way? Why didn't you react learining instead of the asking for the correct one "AS PRIORITY" when there are so many broken things in this game?

I'm happy that the develper "tried" to implement the RAF fighters with 100oct: is it historical fuel? great!! But I think also that some use this issue as an excuse for their poor flying.

Every Fw190 pilot in IL2 had to fly plane with worser performance than the one of a captured and crashed plane. Probably many of them cried on a message board (with Oleg denying and closing their mouths) but still the 190 was the butcher bird in most of the dogfight servers (the full difficulty ones, I mean)

So by experience I don't agree at all with the sentence of Osprey since the new FM is been pictured as solution, but bad pilots will keep flying in wrong way, ignoring every tactic and strategy: probably they will stick their nose on the enemy's six knowing that "this time" they could reach it... if they learned, as you say, that altitude/speed is life then they should succeed also in the 87oct version.

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

So basically..Devs should make the CORE (FM/DM/CEM/whatever) of the game rock solid. After that the rest is up to the player and his own abilities, not the game limitation. I hope I made myself clear in a positive way

The should have.. I don't believe they could do anything better that this while part of the staff is modelling russian planes, russian house and russian doghouse for russian dogs (that probably will be animated)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Good post Manu Learn the tools of the trade and you will be successfull

[ATAG_Snapper]

Well, guys, I can tell you one thing: give us the earlier "Über Sissyfire IIa" and it will be the Red pilots telling the Blue pilots: "Learn the tools of the trade and you will succeed.". And yes, the Red pilots will be quoting Chuck Yeager to the Blue pilots, too!

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Well, guys, I can tell you one thing: give us the earlier "Über Sissyfire IIa" and it will be the Red pilots telling the Blue pilots: "Learn the tools of the trade and you will succeed.". And yes, the Red pilots will be quoting Chuck Yeager to the Blue pilots, too!

I remember that LW pilots were really worried about that plane, above all because of the superior service ceiling ("faster and higher", those were the requested features in a new plane).

Have I to fly in an inferior plane? I will not fly alone... teamwork can do amazing things (but here we should begin to talk about another limit of this sim...)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

I remember that LW pilots were really worried about that plane, above all because of the superior service ceiling ("faster and higher", those were the requested features in a new plane).

Have I to fly in an inferior plane? I will not fly alone... teamwork can do amazing things (but here we should begin to talk about another limit of this sim...)

Yes, and they were right to be worried. Actually, that IIa was modelled very closely to the Real Life Spit Ia -- it was the 109's that 1C should have modelled faster with better altitude performance to match and, actually, EXCEED it!

But the LW pilots would've been infuriated to be told, "Never mind the Über IIa's, fly better and smarter and stop making excuses."

[Flanker35M]

S!

Well, all above just confirms the game has flaws that need to be sorted out Be it FM/DM/CEM. Fix them and rest is up to us pilots. So far been quite able to hold my own, even my best flying days are long gone

I rarely dogfight these days, rather plan my routes according to the radio contacts and all that to get the job done So yes, I am in that Bf109E-4B or Bf110C-7 dropping eggs on good old RAF I find it more fun to really plan the mission, navigate and use the good range and decent speed in the Bf110C-7 to accomplish what the briefing says on ATAG. It is thrilling to see if the plan works out or someone spots me going for the target

I would also like to ask how many of you use historical fuel loads aka 100% on missions? I bet less than 20% of people do, mostly used load is 20-50% fuel and off they go. I use always 100% on the Bf109E, 70% or more on Bf110C as that is more than enough for long range missions. IRL Spitfire suffered from same as Bf109E, short legs = big fuel consumption accompanied with a rather small fuel load.

[ATAG_Snapper]

@Manu: Actually, everything you say I agree with in a general sense. Clearly you have flown flights sims for a long time, as many of us have, too. I fly CloD a lot, usually with the same Red pilots. Let's face it, after several hundred hours and literally many dozens of dogfights, pilots of both sides have far more [virtual] experience under their belts than most of the real life RAF or LW pilots ever could. Certainly well up there with the Eastern Front LW pilots that survived. (I'm not for a minute comparing ourselves with the Real Life pilots of either side; hopefully everyone realizes that!)

The point I'm making is that many of us on both sides are very good at this SIM. Many of our dogfights are very, very close run. We all know how to get the most of our chosen aircraft, which is why many prefer the model we do ie. in my case I choose the IIa over the 2-speed Spit I or the CSP Spit Ia because I can extract more performance from the IIa. Reason? Because I may find myself up against a LW pilot like yourself that can dig the maximum performance out of your E4 rather than settle on a G50.

Basically, as with any fine tool, I can make good use of an extra 20 mph or another minute longer at full WEP before the engine blows. I don't use the extra performance as a crutch, but as a means to better accomplish my task -- shooting down expertly-flown 109's! I know I speak for my mates on this. We don't want a crushingly superior fighter, because historically the Spits and Hurricanes were not. But they were closer a match in Real Life to the 109's than what 1C has modelled in Cliffs of Dover. That's all we ask.