Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by phoenix1963

Kwaitek's post reminded me that with this patch the Spit 2a versus 100 octane Spit 1a performance is now completely out of kilter. They really should not be massively different.
The 100 1a now feels strangely unstable, much slower to accelerate, struggles to turn.

Spitfires were always "nice" to fly, this one is not. Yes, this is a rather subjective view! I'd be grateful if someone could produce some comparative performance graphs, particularly sustained turn rates, it's difficult I know.

56RAF_phoenix

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-II.html

I found the gen via the above link (esp para 4) rather interesting Phoenix.

Happy landings

[Osprey]

I've flown with Felipe before, he knows his stuff. Had you (Ernst) been taken down by me then perhaps we could argue about overmodelling, but Felipe, no, he just gets the best out of it.

This was all predicted, that after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FM's are at least brought closer and now a number of blues are suddenly upset about it. One thing I notice is that the best blue pilots are pretty much silent though, they know their machines and how to use them. If you want to learn from some of these types and aren't a squadron take a look at JG26 in Air Combat Group JG26_DavidRed is desperately hard to kill !

~S~

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Osprey

This was all predicted, that after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FM's are at least brought closer and now a number of blues are suddenly upset about it.

Osprey, many pilots keep flying Spitfires at low altitude and this is not a matter of FM...

I don't know Felipe's skill but just for the fact he flies so high it makes clear that he's more than an average Spit pilot, a good challenger, and I guess he was also when RAF fighters' speed was lower.

But, imo, you find one as Felipe once every 30 engagements with Spitfire pilots. So I can understand if blue pilots feel confident in their rides: probably they used to not look above their plane while flying at medium altitude.

[Flanker35M]

S!

I would say that there is an equal amount of average pilots in both camps, a few shine above them and then the new ones learning the ropes. Has nothing to do with any preferred ride or side.

As many state it would benefit all to make comprehensive tests and post the results and see what is off, what is OK and what needs some tweaking only. Without it going into a blue vs. red name calling, that is not what we need but a game/sim all want to play and learn to be a good pilot.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

I would say that there is an equal amount of average pilots in both camps, a few shine above them and then the new ones learning the ropes. Has nothing to do with any preferred ride or side.

Which is of course what happened in the real world

[Flanker35M]

S!

Sure was, but again seems many think that they should be like the very few that became legendary aces. We play a game and it sets some limitations we have to live with. And one is that we will never get accurate FM/DM/CEM because hardware just is not up to it or you would have wireframe graphics I think the expectations are too high combined with the saturation of information/notes/memoirs/interviews and no-one will never be happy no matter how hard a dev tries.

So what we can do try is to get performances and modellings within an acceptable limit so the gameplay will not suffer but again not become too simplified. Then CoD and it's sequels will shine when the balance is found with the CORE of the sim being rock solid to build on. Just some thoughts..

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

I would say that there is an equal amount of average pilots in both camps, a few shine above them and then the new ones learning the ropes. Has nothing to do with any preferred ride or side.

[OT]
You're polite Flanker, but do you really think all the planes require the same skill to succeed? I don't think to say garbage by stating that TnB fighting require less self-discipline (see patience) and every new aggressive pilot can get used to it at the first dogfight very fast, since it's a "there 's no need to think: move the stick, aim and fire!"

Instakill.

If the Zeke's pilot keeps downing the Wildcat's one who's trying to turn with him, don't you think that the american pilot will try something different BEFORE the japanese one? Infact the latter does not need to change his tactic at all.. he's winning.

IMO BnZ is harder to learn, required more time and many KIA: it's less rewarding and a guy without patience will switch plane (do you remember the 190's IL2 history?). Because of this I think that the average pilot of BnZ planes (109/190/Hellcat/P47/P51) is actually more skilled than a Spitfire/Zeke/La7 pilot.

Still you enter in one of the most populated IL2 dogfight server and you find most of the 109s flying high and teamworking, and the rest is below, so that I have to fly with SpitfireI/La5/P51C and together with a teammate to have some fun since most of the guys there seem to not cooperate: of course still you find a single 109 who want to turn with you and dies fast... but the same number of BnZing Spitfires.

Of course I'm talking about IL2 1946... only Luthier knows when CloD will be worthy of been played by me.
[/OT]

Sooo... returning to the FM argument: Osprey states that "after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FMs are at least brought closer"... Flanker.. do you really believe it was a FM issue?

The last thing about the FM test (to not be totally OT ): have you guys a direct link with the developers? Are you sure that your tests are helping CloD?

Since I think this devotion should be directed where you can actually see results... what about a DCS World MOD?



Maybe one day CloD will actually allow the community to gain from your knowledge and perseverance... SDK?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

[OT]
You're polite Flanker, but do you really think all the planes require the same skill to succeed? I don't think to say garbage by stating that TnB fighting require less self-discipline (see patience) and every new aggressive pilot can get used to it at the first dogfight very fast, since it's a "there 's no need to think: move the stick, aim and fire!"

Instakill.

If the Zeke's pilot keeps downing the Wildcat's one who's trying to turn with him, don't you think that the american pilot will try something different BEFORE the japanese one? Infact the latter does not need to change his tactic at all.. he's winning.

IMO BnZ is harder to learn, required more time and many KIA: it's less rewarding and a guy without patience will switch plane (do you remember the 190's IL2 history?). Because of this I think that the average pilot of BnZ planes (109/190/Hellcat/P47/P51) is actually more skilled than a Spitfire/Zeke/La7 pilot.

Still you enter in one of the most populated IL2 dogfight server and you find most of the 109s flying high and teamworking, and the rest is below, so that I have to fly with SpitfireI/La5/P51C and together with a teammate to have some fun since most of the guy there sem to not to cooperate: of course still you find a single 109 who want to turn with you and dies fast... but far far less that BnZing Spitfires.

Of course I'm talking about IL2 1946... only Luthier knows when CloD will be worthy of been played by me.
[/OT]

Sooo... returning to the FM argument: Osprey states that "after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FMs are at least brought closer"... Flanker.. do you really believe it was a FM issue?

The last thing about the FM test (to not be totally OT ): have you guys a direct link with the developers? Are you sure that your tests are helping CloD?

Since I think this devotion should be directed where you can actually see results... what about a DCS World MOD?



Maybe one day CloD will actually allow the community to gain from your knowledge and perseverance... SDK?

Manu, you run the risk of seriously underestimating your opponent. It works both ways, which you fail to mention. For 14 months the Spitfire and Hurricane pilots have dealt with experienced 109 pilots that, quite wisely, refuse to t&b. The 109's have used their superior speed and climbing performance to dive out of the sun, take their shot, then climb back untouched into the sun to repeat the process over and over and over until they get their kill. Yes, the Spits and Hurries turn for all they're worth, but it's hard to dodge the opponent you cannot see in the sun's glare. Can't dive away......that just makes you an easy target for the 109 pilot who can out dive you. Can't run away.....the 109 can easily catch up and shoot you down easily. Can't porpoise like the 109's favourite evasion tactic....the Merlin's carbureted engine cuts out -- at the worst possible time. Can't climb away.....even a co-energy 109 can easily outclimb you. Can't out-scissors the 109.....his roll rate is faster than yours. Oh....you can out turn him in a sustained turn....but the 109 won't hang around for that. Why would he? He can just speed/dive/climb away to repeat the boom and zoom process against his severely underpowered opponent. I've been told I can "angle fight him"......as the 109 pilot circles 1000 meters overhead laughing.

Experienced Spitfire and Hurricane pilots have learned spawn inland and grab altitude -- lots of it. 20,000 feet for starters. Which is not particularly helpful when a half dozen 109's are tag-teaming each other vulching the RAF coastal airfields. If a Spit or Hurri tries a boom and zoom on an unwary 109 below, he better get it right the first time and make his kill. Reason: Spits and Hurries have to CUT THROTTLE when initiating a dive -- they lose their ailerons past 420 mph otherwise (despite spec of 450 mph dive limit --that's a laugh. Yet a big concern by Blue pilots that the Spit's roll rate is 3 times too fast at 410 mph. Better use the rudder to do your fast rolls, 'cause you ain't gonna have ailerons too much longer! ). So if you miss your shot on that first attempt -- keep diving and run away. Otherwise the 109 will bunt down after you, accelerate in HIS dive and catch you as you pull up to regain altitude to repeat your boom and zoom. Don't forget, the Spit and Hurries didn't have WEP at all, unlike your 1.3 -1.4 ata that you can use over and over and over. Now we have "WEP" -- last time I used it (12 lbs boost, 3000 rpms, Full Lean mixture) on Tues night I blew my engine after a 1.5 minute climb just before reaching an unsuspecting 109. He flew on unaware while my smoking Spit fell away losing power. Yet we have Blue pilots quibbling over whether we should have 3 minutes or 5 minutes of "WEP" when we don't even have TWO minutes!!!!

So, call it whining, whinging, or whatever. I fully realize 109 pilots have their FM concerns as well, especially concerning control surfaces. But I don't for a second cast aspersions on their fighting skills just because they've had it easy against the RAF fighters since Day 1. Exception: the very former Spitfire IIa. Rarely seen online (at most five were allocated). Despite very strong objections on this forum, we're finally seeing some acknowledgement at least from the devs that the Boost Cut Out Override gate (Spit)/plunger (Hurricane) actually served a purpose. The devs still refuse to actually give historical performance to this all-important feature, for reasons not mentioned yet.

All to say, Spit and Hurricane pilots have THEIR challenges, too. It's not the easy turn and burn you make it out to be, unless we chance upon a noobie 109 pilot. Nor is boom and zoom easy, I fully realize, when you have only a few seconds to judge speed, deflection, and convergence. Not to mention the 15 seconds of ammunition the 109's are limited to!

[6S.Manu]

Snapper, I'm not limiting my opinion on what I've seen in CloD.

I don't fly Clod. I did 34 hours, and most of them were for settings configuration. I just reported the fight in which my chasing Spitfire followed my from 6km to 500m over my base where me and 2 other guys killed him.

I'm taking about IL2 in general: so there are not only SpitI and 109E... I understand that the engine cut is an handicap... And it's a good thing that they implemented it (IL2 Spitfire's flown many years without the Miss Shilling's orifice). I also understand the weapon limitation.. it's all historical (but I question CloD's DM model: damage could be roughly modelled as FMs).

In many years of flight simming I almost can remember every time I found a Spitfire at high altitude dictating the fight: I remember them since with some of these pilots I've became friend (when somebody give me a good fight and fly well I'm used to make him my compliments). I remember many of my KIA (above all the one made by Jaws in his 190 against my spitfire... I learned a lot from that single kill) since I really hate to be killed.

But I can also not forget how many times I BnZed planes with target fixation who had a plane with better performance but didn't used it correcly (SpitIX should be untouchable by Fw190 and because of this it was my favourite prey...I fled only to kill them ).

The few time I entered in a CloD server it was the same thing (but with the addon of invisible planes, ghosts and monkeys operating the flaks).
Sadly my mind refuses to fly with CloD anymore, and so most of my teammates... 20 pilots with CloD, only one still fly it and it's one of the nicer poster here).

Anyway it's fun that you said about the spitfire veterans: I'm not used to fly spitfires but 2 weeks ago I've taken two cadets of my squad in a server... 1940, too many blue and so we took the RAF fighters... we took the SpitfireIs so they could learn the "enemy" plane. I told them to spawn on a base far from the coast because, I guessed, the 109s would come there and cap over our bases... "we spawn and gain altitude far from the coast. Then, with altitude, we enter in the combat zone"... I was right, after some minutes the 109s were there and I managed to kill 3 of them but I crashed while landing against an invisible building... . God cried that night.

I think that the veterans should teach this "tactic", by Chat or by Briefing. With a so inferior plane RAF pilots should not pass the channel at 2km...

I will try to enter in the server to see if things are changed.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

I would say that there is an equal amount of average pilots in both camps, a few shine above them and then the new ones learning the ropes. Has nothing to do with any preferred ride or side.

As many state it would benefit all to make comprehensive tests and post the results and see what is off, what is OK and what needs some tweaking only. Without it going into a blue vs. red name calling, that is not what we need but a game/sim all want to play and learn to be a good pilot.

Well said, Flanker!