Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[=AN=Felipe]

Originally Posted by Ernst

I do not known but my opinion is that guys complaining about sptifires are noobies because yesterday i found =AN=Felipe's spitfire at 6.5 K and we need 3 109s to shot down him.

S! Ernst,

First, you guys dont took me down, i land my plane, with damage but i land... lol

So lets talk about this point you bring up in your topic... All performance test i have read tells me one thing, spitfire still under modelated, BUT almost red pilots complain agains 1009s not becouse the spitfire was under performed, its becouse they dont know how to manage the engine settings...

That night we fight a hell of a great battle, i shoot 2 109s down at 23k ft, and apper 2 more and i have to run away and land... How i do that? How can i make barrel rolls at 22k top how can i loop in that altitude...

So... every loop i made, i lost my engine at top, flaps down to help me bring my nose down again and dont stall, to restart my engine again... BUT in result of that i lost about 5k 6k ft to recover and back to fight again.

In that altitude you can compare, spitfire got almost the same climb rate, i just set my engine for better flow of cavalary and acceleration... Thats the point when a Blue pilot fight against a Red Ace, we got the same vantages you got.

I know you are a great fighter pilot, we play togheter a long time, but belive me, in that altitude fighting against a Spitfire IIa in certain hands, its very difficult to win...

I dont want to be arrogant or rude with anyone, but its fact, blue pilots trust too mutch in their planes, this excessive trust maybe will defeat someone maybe not, deppends against you are flying. I belive in two things, gunnery and pilots hands, of course engine performance will help too, but in war we saw this happening, spitfires rocking 109s and vice versa...

We will try to reach a more realistic Spitfire, and of course we want a more realistic 109s, but guys, open you eyes, dont reach a IL2 1946 performance, that simulator SUCKS becouse that unaccurate flightmodels... fact too...

Ill post Spitfire tests soon in this forum, for comparasions... ok?

Cya guys! Cya in skyes!

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by =AN=Felipe

I know you are a great fighter pilot, we play togheter a long time, but belive me, in that altitude fighting against a Spitfire IIa in certain hands, its very difficult to win...

I claim it since 6 years at least... Spit's energy retention gives to it a great advantage at that altitude.

Originally Posted by =AN=Felipe

I dont want to be arrogant or rude with anyone, but its fact, blue pilots trust too mutch in their planes, this excessive trust maybe will defeat someone maybe not, deppends against you are flying. I belive in two things, gunnery and pilots hands, of course engine performance will help too, but in war we saw this happening, spitfires rocking 109s and vice versa...

The first part it's true for both the sides.

Gunnery, yes, but more than pilot's hands it was pilot's IQ. Fatigue modelling, but above all realistic scanning timing and visibility would give the real advantage to the smarter and more disciplined guy, and not to the one who's good with the stick.

[=AN=Felipe]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Gunnery, yes, but more than pilot's hands it was pilot's IQ. Fatigue modelling, but above all realistic scanning timing and visibility would give the real advantage to the smarter and more disciplined guy, and not to the one who's good with the stick.

Thx for the kind words! I 100% agree with you! I think we can add the famous "Situation awarness" or "SA" in parallel with IQ and discipline of the Pilots.

Of course we will reach for realistic flight and models like you said =)

Cya!

[Robo.]

Nice reading Felipe - I didn't get that it was yourself in the Spitfire from Ernst's post. Well flown then!

But what you discuss here with Manu is all about individual pilot's skill = using the existing FMs but not about FMs themselves. Although I obviously agree with what you said, it always comes down to the guy in the cockpit, his brain, his hands, feet, eyes, experience...

As for the Flight Models - there are still mistakes and inconsistencies in all aircraft, this thread is about improved RAF aircraft from the last Beta patch. Not because anyone is complaining but because all this is new stuff and we want it to be evaluated, discussed etc. It always takes some time to get used to the new stuff and to figure it out...

Coming back to what Ernst said about the initial FM discussion:

Originally Posted by Ernst

I do not known but my opinion is that guys complaining about sptifires are noobies because yesterday i found =AN=Felipe's spitfire at 6.5 K and we need 3 109s to shot down him.

You can take whatever FM and make it work for you. Good pilot is a good pilot... but that doesn't mean that the FM is correct.

Originally Posted by Ernst

The fight lasted almost 10 minutes. The spitfire IIA totally overperformed the 109 high there making loops and barrels rolls while the 109 barely can climb or fly level.

Have you ever tried flying a Spitfire above 20k? It certainly outperforms the 109s up there, which is why Felipe was at that altitude in the first place. But it's certainly not easy, I would say that many people with less hours in a Spitfire would blow their engine before you say Messerschmitt Messerschmitt Messerschmitt.

Originally Posted by Ernst

If in RL was that way the 109s would have no chance since the BoB fight occured mostly at high altitude, and we known that they were very well matched if we compared the kill/ratios against each other. Someone can say? The Germans have more acs? Ok if you consider the bombers. But fighter vs. fighter they were matched and the british were flying over its territory, the germans had teh fuel problem etc...

How exactly matched? Speed wise or climb rate? What altitudes are we talking about? Looking at the hard data - graphs etc it looks that Merlins had a slight edge up there, see http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html (I do know the site is red biased, but the actual graphs are not far off). German pilots were struggling up there and it required some skill to get some extra speed above FTH - see Steinhilpers book and fiddling with RPM etc. Even more pronounced with the Merlin XII.

Originally Posted by Ernst

The truth is, the SPIT accutually in sim is very capable aircraft and certainly well matched with the 109s....

I agree it is very capable and now quite well matched (with this new patch I mean). But we're still not quite there hence this discussion and pointing out at things that are still wrong - including weird mixture behaviour or wrong limits for engine operations.

Where exactly did you see a 3' limit for BCC-O (Merlin III)?

[Robo.]

Bugtracker issues dealing with Spitfire FMs :

1. Incorrect boost settings (Rolls Royce Merlin engines):

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/370

2. Incorrect mixture operation (Rolls Royce Merlin engines):

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/102

3. Incorrect mixture position (Spitfire)

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/18

Please do vote, it seems the devs are listening and are basing the fixes on the number of votes.