Soviet fighters and 4.12

[Z1024]

Lagg3 specs table here: http://www.airpages.ru/ru/la3_4.shtml
Or google-translated (pretty close BTW):
http://translate.google.com/translat....shtml&act=url

Russian Wikipedia has some more or less detailed specs too: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%...80.D0.B8.D1.8F

Quite close to the above.

There are so many modifications and I can't really map them, but Il2 compare specs look pretty close. Top speeds vary, but close, turn time is basically spot on. Not sure about low speed handling - it this is quantifiable at all...

The 1st article says the plane was pretty average - not really better than other soviet planes of the era. Late models were clearly inferior to the La5FN and La7 in pretty much everything.

It also says its vices were ironed out around 1943 but it was still inferior to the German planes.

So it was the M82 engine that basically saved the LaGG airframe turning it into La5

The other potent soviet fighter was the i185 that had a potential to become the best soviet fighter of the war - modern type, high wing loading, very powerful engine (2000-2200hp for the M71 version) however the M71 engine never went into large scale production and was unreliable. As far as I understand Yakovlev did everything he could to kill off any competition and he succeeded in this case and almost succeeded in the La5s case, but La5 was just too good, and eventually went into production.

BTW the 185 turns too well in the game for a high wing loaded plane.
this article: http://www.airpages.ru/dc/i185front.shtml
indicates the turn time @1000m was 22-23s but in the game it is around 19.5-20s. a 10% decrease. I'd say its pretty significant. I'd expect a more FW-like behavior given its weight of ~ 3700kg.

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Z1024

The other potent soviet fighter was the i185 that had a potential to become the best soviet fighter of the war - modern type, high wing loading, very powerful engine (2000-2200hp for the M71 version) however the M71 engine never went into large scale production and was unreliable. As far as I understand Yakovlev did everything he could to kill off any competition and he succeeded in this case and almost succeeded in the La5s case, but La5 was just too good, and eventually went into production.

Yakovlev's political standing didn't have that much to do with the failure of the I-185 going into production, and he wouldn't have had to do much to block it anyways.

Something to consider is that the M-82 was a reliable engine. However, the La-5, which also used the M-82, was already in full production and being further developed. The I-185 was still in prototype stage. The priority for the Soviet Air Force at this stage was to get as many aircraft to the front as rapidly as possible. Tooling up for production of a new aircraft takes time, money, and resources. In the middle of a war, when you already have two fighters types that have been simultaneously well-established in production for some time, with aircraft basically akin to being 'stenciled out', it doesn't necessarily help to slow them both down to make room for a third fighter, one that will siphon engines away from one of the fighters already established in production.

Stavka knew how good the I-185 was but the pressing situation of the war dictated since they already had two good fighters well under way and with room for further development, and have already contributed to the war effort (albeit at a cost), then concentrate on maximizing those. The I-185 just arrived a bit too late.

This was common. All the major nations experienced similar issues with prioritization. Particularly the United States, which produced an absolutely bewildering array of aircraft types, many of which were very highly advanced, extremely capable, and very promising. However, they never went any further than prototype stage.

Moreover, there's more to researching aircraft capabilities for modelling in a sim than just looking up and reciting physical and performance figures. It helps to know the math that enables the aircraft to generate those numbers in the first place.

[Z1024]

Actually i185 was developed maybe even earlier than La5 (LaGG with m82 engine).
more info here: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i185.html (if you can read Russian or willing to put up with Google translation)

As to the sim aircraft modelling - I would think the model should at least have the same or close basic performance figures (such as top speeds curve and turn times) to the real thing?
Currently some of the FMs are too optimistic, we are giving these figures here to let the devs know this is the case and needs to be addressed in order to make the game more realistic. I'm not submitting C++ code to patch their existing sources

[Arrow]

Originally Posted by Z1024

Actually i185 was developed maybe even earlier than La5 (LaGG with m82 engine).
more info here: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i185.html (if you can read Russian or willing to put up with Google translation)

As to the sim aircraft modelling - I would think the model should at least have the same or close basic performance figures (such as top speeds curve and turn times) to the real thing?
Currently some of the FMs are too optimistic, we are giving these figures here to let the devs know this is the case and needs to be addressed in order to make the game more realistic. I'm not submitting C++ code to patch their existing sources

Its not that simple that there would be some magical figure like turn time, you have to tweak all parameters of the plane and all the data result from the mathematical model of the plane. There are a lot of them, so if you tweak one you can get a perfect sustained turn time, however you can pork climb characteristics. But anyway I hope that DT will update soviet fighters models to reflect real-world data a bit better according to credible sources.

[gaunt1]

I found something in the archives of simhq forums. I know that its almost a decade old, but it may be useful. Unfortunately its only turn performance.

http://simhq.net/forum/ubbthreads.ph...1284449/1.html

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Z1024

Actually i185 was developed maybe even earlier than La5 (LaGG with m82 engine).
more info here: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i185.html (if you can read Russian or willing to put up with Google translation)

As to the sim aircraft modelling - I would think the model should at least have the same or close basic performance figures (such as top speeds curve and turn times) to the real thing?
Currently some of the FMs are too optimistic, we are giving these figures here to let the devs know this is the case and needs to be addressed in order to make the game more realistic. I'm not submitting C++ code to patch their existing sources

"Maybe" even earlier than the La-5?

First prototypes of the I-185 were built with experimental and unreliable engines (M-90, M-81), and these flew unspectacularly in 1941. There were very few M-82 and M-71 prototypes flying all the way through 1942. Limited field trials didn't even start for the I-185 until almost 1943. By then, fighter squadrons had already seen plenty of combat with their LaGG-3s and La-5s. The La-5 was already in full production, with incomplete LaGG-3 airframes being converted in the factory, and more LaGGs that already saw service were being converted at service depots.

The Yaks and Lavochkins were good aircraft, doing the job, had further development potential, and have long since been available in numbers by the time two or three I-185s were even beginning to see limited service. Late fatal crashes of the I-185s certainly didn't help their cause at this stage, either.

Also, the Yakovlevs and Lavochkins were made predominantly of wood and other non-strategic materials, particularly the LaGG-3/La-5 which was sort of a "stressed 'wooden' skin construction" if you will, with even the fuselage stringers themselves also being made of wood. The Yak was more of a conventional mixed construction. The I-185 on the other hand used a lot of aluminium in it's construction, especially in the wings. This was yet another strategic consideration that made the aircraft impractical for the VVS at the time.

The I-185 was an outstanding fighter aircraft, however, potentially the best the VVS could have fielded. If the Soviets weren't under the kind of pressure they were enduring from 1941 through 1943, they might have had the luxury of time and resources to properly develop the I-185 alongside the Yak-1 and La-5. But they didn't, and that's how it played out.

To suggest that it would make the sim "more realistic" to include, and further address an aircraft that flew in prototype form only and never saw any actual combat, is a contradiction. The point here is just accept and enjoy the I-185 for what it is. It's a beautiful airplane, it's fun to fly, and it goes like stink.

It's worth noting that historically, prototype aircraft have been dynamically better fliers than their full production, field service counterparts, due to the simple fact that they tend to be much lighter than they would be if they were laden with field hardware (radios, armor, and other field modifications and adaptations that add weight).

[Z1024]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

To suggest that it would make the sim "more realistic" to include, and further address an aircraft that flew in prototype form only and never saw any actual combat, is a contradiction. The point here is just accept and enjoy the I-185 for what it is. It's a beautiful airplane, it's fun to fly, and it goes like stink.

Actually they flew like 10 combat missions strictly over the soviet controlled territory and mainly in the free hunt/ BnZ mode.

I'm not suggesting it was a good idea to include it let alone to make it so uber.
In the game it is very competitive against the best 1945 planes in every respect (excl jets, of course).

It is clearly overmodelled, turns too well for that wing loading and specs of the real i185 support this observation. It doesn't overheat as badly as in real life, you can fly @110% for ridiculous amounts of time. The engine is just as reliable as merlin or BMW801, although in the real life they needed servicing or replacement every 5hrs or so.
And the fact that some servers add this plane to 1942-1943 maps doesn't help either. If you fly any 42-43 plane on such servers you will be at a significant disadvantage.

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Z1024

Actually they flew like 10 combat missions strictly over the soviet controlled territory and mainly in the free hunt/ BnZ mode.

As I said, "Limited field trials..." - read the post. They were still only the same two or three original M-82 and M-71 prototypes, however, and saw no actual combat, i.e. they never fired thier guns in anger at another aircraft.

I agree that it's performance may be a bit over the top in the sim, but (again) being that it flew in prototype form only, and (again) most prototypes tend to fly better than their production counterparts anyway - at least initially, this is something that I'm willing to accept, personally. Besides, talking of "reaslitic", it would not be so to include the I-153 in combat with anything else, because IRL it never saw combat with anything else. There are no instances of direct comparison with anything else in a real-world, wartime, combat environment situation, as opposed to sterile data on a sheet of paper, or test pilots delightful comments after a controlled test flight or uneventful CAP well behind friendly lines. Having said that, I think it's reasonable to expect that the I-185 probably won't get the sort of attention you might think it deserves. It would be nice if it did, but with the amount of effort required in such work, it would also be reasonable to expect that there are higher priorities in order right now...

It's a simple choice to either not fly servers that include the I-185, or to fly an I-185 yourself. Might be a bit limiting or unfair, but that's how it is, so there you go.

[Z1024]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

As I said, "Limited field trials..." - read the post. They were still only the same two or three original M-82 and M-71 prototypes, however, and saw no actual combat, i.e. they never fired thier guns in anger at another aircraft.

They flew 10-11 real combat missions and shot down or damaged one plane, the only limitation was to fly over soviet controlled territory to make sure the plane will never be captured by Germans. Obviously they didn't risk entering a TnB fight - strictly high speed passes. They never encountered FW190s during these combat trials. It's in that article I mentioned.