Horton

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

The Jumo is a much larger engine, stretching out further behind the wing.

Agreed as my drawing showed

Originally Posted by tools4fools

If you look at your own drawing there is only a small part of the BMW after the center wing, almost entire weight is in front.

Agreed as my drawing showed

Most of the weight (mass) of the BMW engine is FORWARD of the cg..

Which is explains why the OUTER wing was swept BACKWARDS

As in to put some weight (mass) behind the cg to counter the weight (mass) of BMW engine sticking out ahead of the cg..

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Not so with the Jumo, where approx 40% is in the back of wing center.

Agreed as my drawing showed

And is the essance of my point

As for 40%, I don't know if I would go as far as to say 40% of the weight (mass)..

In that assumes a uniform distribution of weight of the engine, framing, skin, etc.

But I think we can all agree that there is more weight (mass) behind the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo..

With that said, we know..

The cg was 'set' for the BMW configuration
The cg will 'change' with the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo

The additional weight (mass) behind the cg has to be offset with weight (mass) added ahead of the cg.

Which is explains why the INNER wing was swept FORWARD

As in to put some weight (mass) ahead of the cg to counter the weight (mass) of Jumo engine sticking out behind the cg..

Hope that helps! S!

[tools4fools]

The additional weight (mass) behind the cg has to be offset with weight (mass) added ahead of the cg.

Indeed, nobody disputes this.

But the Jumo added a lot of weight forward too, remember?
Not only behind.
So correctly placed there is no need for additional weight.
In particular as the majority of weight seems to be forward in the Jumo 004.

http://deanoinamerica.files.wordpres.../jumo004_1.jpg

There certainly seem to be more bits n pieces in those 60% percent mounted forward on the wing.


Additionally check this out, from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Luftwaffe-...123503&sr=1-12

Me262wing01.jpg

As we see Jumo jet, still straight inner wings.

So we are likely back to this:

On 1 March 1940, instead of moving the wing backward on its mount, the outer wing was repositioned slightly aft; the trailing edge of the mid-section of the wing remained unswept. Based on data from the AVA Göttingen and wind tunnel results, the middle section's leading edge was later swept to the same angle as the outer panels

++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

But the Jumo added a lot of weight forward too, remember?

I think you need to take another look at my drawing!

And note the overlay I did of the BMW on the Jumo (bottom center)..

First look at the overlay of the two engines ahead of the cg and note that the BMW and Jumo occupy about the same space ahead of the cg. Which means 'very little' NEW weight was added ahead of the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo. That is to say the two almost cancel each other out. By candled out I mean subtract the BMW weight that was there from the Jumo that is now there and you will see that very little 'NEW' weight was added ahead of the cg

Now look at the overlay of the two engines behind the cg and note that the BMW and Jumo do NOT occupy the same space behind the cg. Which means 'a lot' of NEW weight was added behind the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo. That is to say the two do NOT cancel each other out. By candled out I mean subtract the BMW weight that was there from the Jumo that is now there and you will see that 'a lot' of NEW weight was added behind of the cg

Which means they would have to add weight ahead of the cg to maintain the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo

Hope that helps!

[Al Schlageter]

tools, you need to read the 4 volume tome on the Me262 by Smith and Creek.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I realized my verbal descriptions can confuse some people, so I took the liberty of creating another drawing that shows what I was describing in my last post.. The red being the new weight the Jumo added.. I also added the swept wing area in Green.. See attached

Enjoy

[bongodriver]

Wow....this waste of bandwidth is still going on?

Would have been nice to learn something about the Horton....but instead I see it turned into another 'Germany was a nation of supermen who invented absolutely every thing ever....period!!! and history is written by the winners so it's all lies lies lies!!!'

The 262 was not so revolutionary, pioneering but not revolutionary, swept wings were a british invention (J.W.Dunne), the automatic slats were already on the 109......a Handley page patented design.

Oh and why doesn't Leicester Space centre say anything about Von-Braun?
My guess is because its simply a family based experience of a place with the purpouse of inspiring youngsters to look to the heavens and not be a monument to wars, nothing to do with re-writing history.

IMO Von Braun should have gone to the Nuremberg trials, he did after all design and build the V2 weapons that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civillians in that war, yes his glory and acclaim as the best rocket scientist ever was stained in British blood, he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

Sad but true..

I often wonder..

What would have been Von Braun's fate had Robbert Goddard not died in Aug of 1945 of throat cancer?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

IMO Von Braun should have gone to the Nuremberg trials, he did after all design and build the V2 weapons that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civillians in that war, yes his glory and acclaim as the best rocket scientist ever was stained in British blood, he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

Though the rest of your post in personal opinion garbage, this last paragraph is something I'd actually agree to. The end does not justify the means.
That said, this thread was not for your personal education.