Horton

[tools4fools]

But not the first intentionally swept wing fighter design

Sure it was. Not initially, but after 42 when the research on swept wing was incoporated (and the inner wing swept as well).

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

So show me his 'ballistic missile' then. How far did it reach.

Sorry, but I can't see how anyone would take you serious with comments like that, obviously created by your mind to fit your simple minded views:

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Funny enough too that you discredited 'design aesthetics' as other reasons for swept wing when it didn't suit your 'CoG only' theory, now that you need a straw to make it look as nothing but 'dumb luck' you use it yourself...

consistency is a virtue!

Uhhh...yes, true, you twist and bend what you say all times plus create a little stuff when needed, so guess that's some form of consistency.

Your way at looking at things is actually at least as bad as history channel.
____

[robtek]

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

[addman]

Originally Posted by robtek

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

I agree on this and I also think that we should be careful not to d evaluate the advancements in aero and rocket technology that "ze Germans" made before, during and after the war. There's good reason why both Soviet and the States were scrambling to get all those left over German scientist/engineers to their respective sides.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by robtek

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

Yes it was intentionally swept to correct the cg due to the heavier than expected engines..

Which is very Very VERY different from intentionally sweeping the wings to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

Originally Posted by robtek

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

It does when your trying to dispel the myth that the Me262 was the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology.

As I pointed out before, the history channel types belive that, and the only way to belive that is to belive the Germans were way ahead of everyone else..

Which they would have to be for the Me262 to be the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology.

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology, thus the Germans were not as advanced as the history channel would 'lead' people into thinking

That being the Germans were some sort of super race and/or being assisted by aliens from outer space.

[robtek]

AoA,

to dispel a myth hard facts are needed, not the opinion of "Experts" who try to explain something with second hand knowledge.

None of them was present when the design decisions were made.

And as already was said, the german engineers and developers were the most precious price for the winners, that has never been disputed by anyone, afaik.

It is very disturbing to see such a crusade to denigrate something/someone.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by robtek

to dispel a myth hard facts are needed, not the opinion of "Experts" who try to explain something with second hand knowledge.

Well other than digging up Willy and asking him..

I can not think of a better group of experts on the subject of the Me262 than the folks at STORMBIRDS

Can you?

[tools4fools]

Where as you on the other hand have no proof let alone quotes to support your theories would be considered twisting and bending what was said.

How about this:

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Untrue as we have seen. As we see bend and twisted to fit your argument.

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

Untrue!
You are twisting things once more - only the outer wing section was initially swept for COG reasons.

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Where you had to add 'unique' later on. So bend and twisted from 'any' to 'any unique' - which has a completely different meaning.

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

Your claim on the first ballistic missile. As we all know his rockets never got beyond the experimental point.
The claim that Goddard had "done it all before" is simply untrue.
Another prime example where you bend and twist history to fit your agenda.

And there was the issue where you claimed the Allieds didn't bother with rockets and the V2 as it was not worth - yet they were keen on capturing the design team and send over 600 bombers.

The problem is again and again you pick selected quotes that fit your believe,create a few more myths along the way and bend and twist some sources that they fit your agenda, and ignore anything that doesn't fit your agenda.

Result is a completely distorted and one sided point of view, about as bad as history channel.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

How about this:

So what part of we will have to agree to disagree are you struggling with?

Well what was I thinking.. In that this is like the 3rd or 4th time I have said that so I guess you just want to argue

Now since you insist on being persistent (aka argumentative)..

Allow me to put all your so called wiki link proof to rest

With that said

Recall that we both agreed that the folks at STORMBIRDS are the 'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' aka 'EXPERTS' on the Me262

First up, note that it is apparent from this statement, i.e.

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft

with regards to the 'reason' the wings were swept to correct the cg, where they make note of what 'some writers' like myself point out, that they really hated having to admit that all their research they did during the process of building new Me262s from scratch confirms that statement.

That being the wings were swept to correct the cg due to heavier than expected engine..

Translated.. The wings were NOT swept to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

As for Germanys knowledge of swept wing theory prior and during the development of the Me262.

STORMBIRDS has this to say wrt Busemann and Walchner published work titled "Profile Characteristics as SUPERSONIC Speed" and the conference on high speed flight held in Rome where Busemann gave a lecture title "Aerodynamic Lift at SUPERSONIC Speed".

Note the qualifier SUPERSONIC, it will come up later

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

The real surprise then is why was this knowledge of the swept wing not taken advantage of worldwide before it was experimentally proven on the Me 262. The only plausible (if somewhat vague) explanation was the resistance to new ideas found in all scientific circles

Which also agrees with what I have been saying from the start.. Other than they left out the qualifier that the swept wing studies/data applied to SUPERSONIC flight which is something no plane, not even the early jets of WWII were capable of doing.

Now the funny part is the STORMBIRDS web sight goes on to say

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

What concrete connections can we show between later aircraft and the Me 262 and later aircraft you ask? Don't worry, there is enough circumstantial and material evidence....

The best way to approach this subject is to split it into subsections, highlighting the use of 262 technology by general countries and superpowers.

Yet when you click on the subsections ('next pages') what you will find is...

• The ALLIED FORCES page is BLANK (under construction)

• The OTHER FORCES page is BLANK (under construction)

• The SOVIET BLOC page shows some examples of the Soviets testing some Me262 after the war, and a copy (Sukhoi Su9) they made of it that had straight wings (this is that 'one' post war jet I was referring to earlier)

So even STORMBRIDS had/has trouble making the wiki link types of connections between the Me262 and post war jet fighter designs that you claim are 'there' and easy to make..

I suspect it has something to do with STORMBIRDS having a reputation to consider, where as you don't!

Which speaks volumes IMHO

And is very telling for those willing to listen and/or don't buy into the idea that the Germans were supermen and/or being assisted by aliens from space

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Uhhh...yes, true, you twist and bend what you say all times plus create a little stuff when needed, so guess that's some form of consistency.

The fact that you can not attack the message and have to resort to attacking the messanger speaks volums with regards to your argument.

On that note, me quoting what 'experts' said about the reason why the Me262 wings were swept is not what I or most would consider twisting and bending what was said.

Where as you on the other hand have no proof let alone quotes to support your theories would be considered twisting and bending what was said.

So, I think this is a good point for you and I to agree to disagree.

S!