Horton

[tools4fools]

! Which is why it was so hard for them to admit that the swept wings of the Me262 and the associated benefits were NOT intentional.

Cool. You use them for what supports your claim.
Everything else you read there which you don't like simply doesn't count.
Man, you truly life in a black and white world.

The new greatest hero is Hayes, everything before wasn't really important.
A bit like Goddard, only what he did was important, no?
Both Americans of course, our heroes.

Funny enough you mention the 2262/P8o) being pre-Hayes and so outdated.
The you mention Hayes and the F86.

Hayes publications didn't start until 47.
F86 flew first time in 47 and went swept wing in August 45.

That is why the Me262 and P80 are considered more of a 'evolutionary' than a revolutionary' design

Downplaying again? That statement is just plain silly.

Every plane is evolutionary...

Revolutionary designs are successful firsts - first powered flight, first jet plane, first jet with wing sweep at high speed, first ultra sonic, etc.

Of course those revolutionary designs did not appear out of nowhere, they were based on planes and flight apparatuses made before them, nothing but logical.

I'm not surprised that you see no altering and bending of history since WW II looking at how biased you are and how one sided you look at things.


Keep on ignoring:

- high speed wind tunnel tests from 39 AVA Goettingen
- 262 with steep swept wing at 40 degrees tested in wind tunnel 41
- high speed trial of 262 with 18.5 wing sweep showing advantage over straight wing
- Me 262 swept inner wing added in 42-43, not for CoG

But what that tells me is they either didn't understand it as well as some would have us belive, or, based on what they understood they didn't see it as being a great benefit.. Either of which seem to fit the historic record.. That being most of what the Germans understood of swept wing benefits was based on their studies of 'highly' swept wings. And the Me262 swept wing of only 18 deg is not considered highly swept.

OK, lets sum this up:
- they didn't know anything about those swept wings really.
- even if they knew something about swept wing they thought it was of no advantage
- because their research was done in highly swept wings they had no clue about less swept wings. Boelkow doing research on high swept wing would be completely ignorant of a lesser wing sweep.


Oh boy, those German designers were really stupid.
Kind of surprised that the Americans thought it necessary to go over to Germany and get their hands on whatever they could, even went through the trouble to translate the papers.
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[Sternjaeger II]

guys, guys... don't turn this into a battle of wits..

The development of aviation is a non-stop history of copy/paste, sheer luck and loads of trial and error, a lot of error (it's not a case that they say "aviation rules are written with blood").

The Americans took great inspiration from the Me262 and other German designs, incidentally the Germans nailed a design that inspired a lot of other jets, the Russians partly followed their own development and partly copied from the Americans etc...

Aerodynamics are the same for everybody, and engineering solution will then be similar.

[tools4fools]

The development of...trial...

Development. Trial.

That's exactly the point. And there was a lot of development and trial going on and into the 262, from 39 until 44.
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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

I'm not surprised that you see no altering and bending of history since WW II looking at how biased you are and how one sided you look at things.

Me biased?

Hardly..

All I am trying to do is and add some balance to the 'biased' history channel type of history..

Where the history channel type of history is the type of history that 'sells'..

And what seems to 'sell' these days is the notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world. It was this notion (the master race) that got them into trouble in the first place! Combined that notion with the Americans love of the underdog and you end up with this very strange kind of German worship. To make it worse, the skin head types here in the states take this warped type of history to justify some of what they do.. This is why I think it is so important to dispel this notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world.

But I digress

As to my point, from the start

Ask your average history channel watcher what was it about the Me262 design that made it 'so revolutionary' and you can be 99 out of 100 will mention the swept wings.

Why?

Well because the history channel types of history always stop short of pointing out the FACT that the swept wings were not intentional and that they were swept to correct the cg.. Because that FACT does not fall into the story line that sells, that the Germans were 'special' in some way.

They were NOT.

The only real edge the Germans had over the rest of the world was the FACT that they knew in the 30s what they had planned for the 40s. Which gave them a good 5+ year RnD head start over the rest of the world.



PS I should point out that I am what one can call a full blooded German. That is to say I am an American, but, my grand parents on both sides of my family came from Germany. I also lived in Germany for many years.. So what I have to say about the Germans is not some sort of hatred for the Germans, nor is it some fear of the Germans rising up again. I just think it is important to get history right.

[tools4fools]

your average history channel watcher what was it about the Me262 design that made it 'so revolutionary'

I doubt your average history channel fellow will even know the advantage of a swept wing design over a straight wing design.
He will only claim that it was the worlds first jet fighter.

Still you are very biased as I see it, forget about German grand parents, has nothing to do with it, neither have skinheads, it's simply that you continue pondering on one design aspect of a plane taken in its initial stages and ignoring all other steps in the design of the plane taken later on plus its development and testing and results going into the design before finally going into production.

And that is biased.
As is bringing in Goddard and Hayes, turning them into the real heroes, while everything else is nil.

You keep absolutely ignoring facts, to remind you:

- high speed wind tunnel tests from 39 AVA Goettingen
- 262 with steep swept wing at 40 degrees tested in wind tunnel 41
- high speed trial of 262 with 18.5 wing sweep showing advantage over straight wing
- Me 262 swept inner wing added in 42-43, not for CoG

Silence to all this that doesn't fit your view.
The 262 was a straight wing - correct for CoG swept wing - production design. 3 steps that's it.

You keep contradicting yourself as well:

Which gave them a good 5+ year RnD head start over the rest of the world.

While above you mention they:

- didn't understand it as well as thought
- they didn't see it as being a great benefit
- as they studied highly swept wings they would have have no clue about lesser swept wings

Which are nothing but assumptions from your side btw.
But at the end they had 5yrs RnD head stat, but somehow they didn't know what they were doing? Now how does that fit?
Not at all.

It makes about as much sense as the V2/rocket tech not being bothersome to the Allieds but still worth sending 600 bombers and capturing the design team.

But I don't see we're getting anywhere, you just keep repeating that one thing, loud and often as they say on that site quoted by you.
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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree than

I am just glad I was able to educate you on the FACT that the wings were swept to correct the cg and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage of some swept wing knowledge the Germans had.

[tools4fools]

and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage

Indeed. Not from the start.
But that leaves room that in its later design stages more was implemented into the design after further research and trial with prototypes.


And as being the first swept wing jet fighter in service it was certainly a remarkable airplane and achievement.
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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Indeed. Not from the start.
But that leaves room that in its later design stages more was implemented into the design after further research and trial with prototypes.

The point at which this became apparent to the Germans is debatable..

But it is clear to all that at some point before the end of the war the Germans where aware of it.. Clearly based on some of the preliminary designs the Germans had on paper.. Which is preliminary with a CAPITAL P and a far Far FAR cry from prototype..

But the problem is some want to give the Germans credit for this knowledge a good ten years prior to when they obtained it.. Which only feed that notion that the Germans were special in some way

For example.. Take the STORMBIRDS quote.. They say the Germans knew about it during the 30s.. They convently leave out the details of it being 1939.. And they convently leave out how long it can take theories on paper to make their way into production. Some think this can happen faster during war, and in some cases it does, but in some cases it does not. That is to say if it aint broke don't fixed it attitude Lockheed had with the P38 receiving upgrades. Where as the Germans were desperate so I think I could see them 'giving it a go' with their fingers crossed approach.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

And as being the first swept wing jet fighter in service it was certainly a remarkable airplane and achievement.

Agreed 100%

Only some like me see it as a logical evolution and not a revolution.. As I noted before.. You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.. Sure you will see a lot of post war BOMBERS slinging engine pods under the wings.. Which makes one take pause and wonder if Hitler was not the smartest guy in the room when he wanted to make it a fast attack bomber! You know that 'other' Me262 myth that the Me262 was some how delayed by Hitler for wanting to put bomb racks on the Me262.. The truth is the Me262 was delayed due to the engines.. Because the only other way to 'spin' that is to say it took the Germans two years to figure out how to put bomb racks on the Me262! And I think we can both agree that the Germans were more than capable of doing that!!

[tools4fools]

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Hard pressed? Not at all.
Jet engines and (further developed) swept wings?
So out of 3 design points most still have two up to this day in one form or another. Not bad, no?


Some in wing engines are outright sexy:
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/colle...95-42883-4.jpg


But overall I would say 'and so what?'

You see hardly any twin boom designs in post war fighters. Does that make the P-38 less significant?

Why is all of the sudden just one design point (engine pods) part important?
Isn't it the overall design product we are looking at?

The DH Comet was the first passenger jet airliner. It had the engines in the wing root, which no (? maybe there's an odd one?) passenger planes of today have, but does that make the fact any lesser?
Nope, the introduction of the passenger jet, as happened with the Comet, changed air travel to the day.

Which is preliminary with a CAPITAL P and a far Far FAR cry from prototype..

That looks like going into the direction of a prototype:
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/His...1101/P1100.jpg
Certainly wasn't intended to be a toy, no?


That looks a bit odd but sure enough like a real plane:
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/His...87/Ju287V1.jpg

They say the Germans knew about it during the 30s..

Well, there apart from the AVA wind tunnel research from 39 and onward there was Busemanns paper published in 35 (obviously worked on before publishing in 35).

Only some like me see it as a logical evolution and not a revolution.

An evolution that created a revolution? As it always goes? Such things usually don't happen overnight.
Those 'revolutions' are milestones along the evolution. The 262 was sure one of them.

Is a B2 a revolution? I would say yes, first flying wing stealth bomber, that sure is a mile stone. But for sure it is an evolution as well.
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[baronWastelan]

And what seems to 'sell' these days is the notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world. It was this notion (the master race) that got them into trouble in the first place! Combined that notion with the Americans love of the underdog and you end up with this very strange kind of German worship.

Why even bring nationalism into this discussion, "Ace"? Aren't there as many "Germanic" Americans as there are Germans in Germany?