Horton

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

No, they are not lying.

Ah good so you agree with me now.. thank you!

Originally Posted by tools4fools

and for OTHER reasons as well as they state on their site.

Other reasons?

Care to provide the link/quote?

[tools4fools]

I posted it already above:

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

Then as well Boelkow:
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=O...oelkow&f=false

Betz and Boelkow doing wind tunnel research for Messerschmitt 1939:

1939 forschte er zusammen mit Ludwig Bölkow im Windkanal für die Firma Messerschmitt.

From wiki:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Betz

The Me 262 had first flown in 1942, and advanced versions incorporating
wings with sweep angles as high as 50' were studied ( r e f . 3). A 40' sweep version,
shown in figure 2, had been tested in a German wind tunnel in 1941 and reached the
prototype stage in early 1945 but was accidentally destroyed on the runway before its
first flight ( ref . 4).

From:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1986017719.pdf

Compared with 262 wing history:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e6...111/SW2623.jpg

40 degrees wing testing in 41. Inner wing sweep added in 42-43.

So it seems:
a) outer wing sweep added to correct for CoG (and 'design aesthetics') in 1940
b) inner wing sweep added 42-43 after further research in wind tunnel in 41.

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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

I posted it already above:

Sorry if I missed it.. So lets take a look at these 'other reason' your saying the folks at STORMBIRDS are stating..

In that we both agree that the folks at STORMBIRDS are 'confirmed authorities' on the Me262..

First up this quote you posted above

Originally Posted by STOMRBIRDS.COM

it is also true that the Germans were aware of the advantages of the swept wing since the 30s!

This one is interesting..

It is almost like they are trying to make excuses for the Germans? I say that because what is funny about that statement is.. On one had they want us to belive the Germans 'were aware' since the 30s.. Yet.. We both know that the Me262 was NOT designed in the 20s!

So, you have to ask yourself..

If the Germans 'were aware' of the advantages of a swept wing.. 
Why did the initial design of the Me262 have straight wings?

I don't know what that tells you..

But what that tells me is they either didn't understand it as well as some would have us belive, or, based on what they understood they didn't see it as being a great benefit.. Either of which seem to fit the historic record.. That being most of what the Germans understood of swept wing benefits was based on their studies of 'highly' swept wings. And the Me262 swept wing of only 18 deg is not considered highly swept.

Next up

Originally Posted by STOMRBIRDS.COM

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

This statement is more of a negative than a positive wrt what the Germans knew IMHO..

In that as most realized after WWII.. Those shapely designs of WWII.. what with the wings being shapely molded into the body (like that picture of the Go229 tail section) were more of a negative than a positive.. Based on the work supersonic area rule by Wallace D Hayes.. Which drove most if not all of the post war 50s and 60s high speed designs.

A good example is the Me262 vs P80

Note that both designs are before Hayes work..

Note the point where the wing attaches to the body and how both molded the wings into the body type of a design..

Now take a look at the F86 at the point where the wing attaches to the body.. No longer molded into the body like it was on the Me262 and P80.

That is why the Me262 and P80 are considered more of a 'evolutionary' than a revolutionary' design.. In fact more of a dead end step, in that you will be hard pressed to find any design aspects of the Me262 used in post war designs..

For example, you will be hard pressed to find a jet fighter with the engines mounted under the wings like the Me262 did.. Which some have noted keeps the Me262 from ever breaking the sound barrier.. Granted you can find a lot of post war jet bombers that mount the engines under the wings! Where as the P80 intakes location were ahead of their time, most post war designs placed the inlet at the tip of the nose, but after that (late 50s) most if not all designs placed the intakes at the wing root body location as the P80 did. About the only design aspect of the Me262 that was used in later designs was the 'flying tail' design that certain aspects of which were used in the X1 design that Chuck Yeager flew to break the sound barrier in level flight.

Last but not least we should point out that the folks at STORMBIRDS are Me262 lovers! You would have to be to do what they did! Thus, many have noted that they will paint the Me262 in the best possible light! That is to say give the Germans every benefit of the doubt! But they are not willing to lie about any aspect! Which is why it was so hard for them to admit that the swept wings of the Me262 and the associated benefits were NOT intentional.

[tools4fools]

! Which is why it was so hard for them to admit that the swept wings of the Me262 and the associated benefits were NOT intentional.

Cool. You use them for what supports your claim.
Everything else you read there which you don't like simply doesn't count.
Man, you truly life in a black and white world.

The new greatest hero is Hayes, everything before wasn't really important.
A bit like Goddard, only what he did was important, no?
Both Americans of course, our heroes.

Funny enough you mention the 2262/P8o) being pre-Hayes and so outdated.
The you mention Hayes and the F86.

Hayes publications didn't start until 47.
F86 flew first time in 47 and went swept wing in August 45.

That is why the Me262 and P80 are considered more of a 'evolutionary' than a revolutionary' design

Downplaying again? That statement is just plain silly.

Every plane is evolutionary...

Revolutionary designs are successful firsts - first powered flight, first jet plane, first jet with wing sweep at high speed, first ultra sonic, etc.

Of course those revolutionary designs did not appear out of nowhere, they were based on planes and flight apparatuses made before them, nothing but logical.

I'm not surprised that you see no altering and bending of history since WW II looking at how biased you are and how one sided you look at things.


Keep on ignoring:

- high speed wind tunnel tests from 39 AVA Goettingen
- 262 with steep swept wing at 40 degrees tested in wind tunnel 41
- high speed trial of 262 with 18.5 wing sweep showing advantage over straight wing
- Me 262 swept inner wing added in 42-43, not for CoG

But what that tells me is they either didn't understand it as well as some would have us belive, or, based on what they understood they didn't see it as being a great benefit.. Either of which seem to fit the historic record.. That being most of what the Germans understood of swept wing benefits was based on their studies of 'highly' swept wings. And the Me262 swept wing of only 18 deg is not considered highly swept.

OK, lets sum this up:
- they didn't know anything about those swept wings really.
- even if they knew something about swept wing they thought it was of no advantage
- because their research was done in highly swept wings they had no clue about less swept wings. Boelkow doing research on high swept wing would be completely ignorant of a lesser wing sweep.


Oh boy, those German designers were really stupid.
Kind of surprised that the Americans thought it necessary to go over to Germany and get their hands on whatever they could, even went through the trouble to translate the papers.
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[Sternjaeger II]

guys, guys... don't turn this into a battle of wits..

The development of aviation is a non-stop history of copy/paste, sheer luck and loads of trial and error, a lot of error (it's not a case that they say "aviation rules are written with blood").

The Americans took great inspiration from the Me262 and other German designs, incidentally the Germans nailed a design that inspired a lot of other jets, the Russians partly followed their own development and partly copied from the Americans etc...

Aerodynamics are the same for everybody, and engineering solution will then be similar.

[tools4fools]

The development of...trial...

Development. Trial.

That's exactly the point. And there was a lot of development and trial going on and into the 262, from 39 until 44.
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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

I'm not surprised that you see no altering and bending of history since WW II looking at how biased you are and how one sided you look at things.

Me biased?

Hardly..

All I am trying to do is and add some balance to the 'biased' history channel type of history..

Where the history channel type of history is the type of history that 'sells'..

And what seems to 'sell' these days is the notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world. It was this notion (the master race) that got them into trouble in the first place! Combined that notion with the Americans love of the underdog and you end up with this very strange kind of German worship. To make it worse, the skin head types here in the states take this warped type of history to justify some of what they do.. This is why I think it is so important to dispel this notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world.

But I digress

As to my point, from the start

Ask your average history channel watcher what was it about the Me262 design that made it 'so revolutionary' and you can be 99 out of 100 will mention the swept wings.

Why?

Well because the history channel types of history always stop short of pointing out the FACT that the swept wings were not intentional and that they were swept to correct the cg.. Because that FACT does not fall into the story line that sells, that the Germans were 'special' in some way.

They were NOT.

The only real edge the Germans had over the rest of the world was the FACT that they knew in the 30s what they had planned for the 40s. Which gave them a good 5+ year RnD head start over the rest of the world.



PS I should point out that I am what one can call a full blooded German. That is to say I am an American, but, my grand parents on both sides of my family came from Germany. I also lived in Germany for many years.. So what I have to say about the Germans is not some sort of hatred for the Germans, nor is it some fear of the Germans rising up again. I just think it is important to get history right.

[tools4fools]

your average history channel watcher what was it about the Me262 design that made it 'so revolutionary'

I doubt your average history channel fellow will even know the advantage of a swept wing design over a straight wing design.
He will only claim that it was the worlds first jet fighter.

Still you are very biased as I see it, forget about German grand parents, has nothing to do with it, neither have skinheads, it's simply that you continue pondering on one design aspect of a plane taken in its initial stages and ignoring all other steps in the design of the plane taken later on plus its development and testing and results going into the design before finally going into production.

And that is biased.
As is bringing in Goddard and Hayes, turning them into the real heroes, while everything else is nil.

You keep absolutely ignoring facts, to remind you:

- high speed wind tunnel tests from 39 AVA Goettingen
- 262 with steep swept wing at 40 degrees tested in wind tunnel 41
- high speed trial of 262 with 18.5 wing sweep showing advantage over straight wing
- Me 262 swept inner wing added in 42-43, not for CoG

Silence to all this that doesn't fit your view.
The 262 was a straight wing - correct for CoG swept wing - production design. 3 steps that's it.

You keep contradicting yourself as well:

Which gave them a good 5+ year RnD head start over the rest of the world.

While above you mention they:

- didn't understand it as well as thought
- they didn't see it as being a great benefit
- as they studied highly swept wings they would have have no clue about lesser swept wings

Which are nothing but assumptions from your side btw.
But at the end they had 5yrs RnD head stat, but somehow they didn't know what they were doing? Now how does that fit?
Not at all.

It makes about as much sense as the V2/rocket tech not being bothersome to the Allieds but still worth sending 600 bombers and capturing the design team.

But I don't see we're getting anywhere, you just keep repeating that one thing, loud and often as they say on that site quoted by you.
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[ACE-OF-ACES]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree than

I am just glad I was able to educate you on the FACT that the wings were swept to correct the cg and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage of some swept wing knowledge the Germans had.

[tools4fools]

and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage

Indeed. Not from the start.
But that leaves room that in its later design stages more was implemented into the design after further research and trial with prototypes.


And as being the first swept wing jet fighter in service it was certainly a remarkable airplane and achievement.
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