Horton

[tools4fools]

That being to correct the cg

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

Sorry, you lost me there, not sure what it is your trying to say..

So allow me to ask you a question to try and clear this up..

Are you NOW saying that the folks at STORMBIRDS.COM are NOT 'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262?

And that they are uninformed, or worse yet, where lying when they stated that it is true, that the initialy design of the Me262 had strait wings, and that the reason they swept the wings back was to correct the cg to account for the heavier than expected engines

Is that what your trying to say?

[raaaid]

well leaned wings have the adavnatage of having more effective surface with less used surface

i think they copied nature:

[tools4fools]

Is that what your trying to say?

No read what I wrote. Just read it.
And read all the other quotes from that site. Just read those as well instead of singling out one that fits your thinking and then "keep on repeating loud and proudly'.

+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

No read what I wrote. Just read it.

I did read it and as I pointed out.. you lost me.

We were talking about the reason the wings were swept on the Me262..

At some point in the conversation you stated that the reason was NOT confirmed..

To which I responded the reason was confirmed..

To which you said (asked) the following

Originally Posted by tools4fools

By who? Are those 'confirmed authorities' on the subject?

At that point I realized you were not going to take my word for it, and that you required and experts opinion (what you called confirmed authorities) before you would belive it.

That is when I provided you the statement from STORMBRIDS (aka experts aka confirmed authorities) who agreed with what I said.

So that is where we were.. Not sure what 'tangent' topic your going off on now, all I ask is that before you do.. Let finish this point to make sure we are on the same sheet of music before we proceed.. Because there really is no reason to move forward if we have not established this simple point.

With that said, allow me to present to you the same question I ask you in the form of a YES or NO question.

Hopefully that will help me understand what your trying to say..

Here we go..

Are you saying the folks at STORMBIRDS are WRONG or LYING when they said that it is TRUE that the initial Me262 design consisted of STRAIGHT wings and that the reason the wings were SWEPT back was to correct the cg due to the heavier than expected jet engines

Yes or No?

[tools4fools]

No, they are not lying. And yes, OUTER wings were swept to correct for CoG - and for OTHER reasons as well as they state on their site.

And yes, the design benefited from the swept wing even if it was only a moderate 18.5 degrees.
And yes, at one point the inner wings were swept back, not for CoG but because of wind tunnel data/testing.
And yes, there's still the question why the designers went the more difficult way of wing sweep when they could have repositioned the wing.
And yes, you still do the same, just keep on repeating loudly and often one single fact out of many.

Bottom line is that the 262 was an advanced design, the first jet fighter with swept wings, its high speed performance benefiting from those swept wings, proven and known at the time due to its high speed trials.
This advanced jet fighter design influenced postwar aircraft development.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

No, they are not lying.

Ah good so you agree with me now.. thank you!

Originally Posted by tools4fools

and for OTHER reasons as well as they state on their site.

Other reasons?

Care to provide the link/quote?

[tools4fools]

I posted it already above:

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

Then as well Boelkow:
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=O...oelkow&f=false

Betz and Boelkow doing wind tunnel research for Messerschmitt 1939:

1939 forschte er zusammen mit Ludwig Bölkow im Windkanal für die Firma Messerschmitt.

From wiki:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Betz

The Me 262 had first flown in 1942, and advanced versions incorporating
wings with sweep angles as high as 50' were studied ( r e f . 3). A 40' sweep version,
shown in figure 2, had been tested in a German wind tunnel in 1941 and reached the
prototype stage in early 1945 but was accidentally destroyed on the runway before its
first flight ( ref . 4).

From:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1986017719.pdf

Compared with 262 wing history:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e6...111/SW2623.jpg

40 degrees wing testing in 41. Inner wing sweep added in 42-43.

So it seems:
a) outer wing sweep added to correct for CoG (and 'design aesthetics') in 1940
b) inner wing sweep added 42-43 after further research in wind tunnel in 41.

+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

I posted it already above:

Sorry if I missed it.. So lets take a look at these 'other reason' your saying the folks at STORMBIRDS are stating..

In that we both agree that the folks at STORMBIRDS are 'confirmed authorities' on the Me262..

First up this quote you posted above

Originally Posted by STOMRBIRDS.COM

it is also true that the Germans were aware of the advantages of the swept wing since the 30s!

This one is interesting..

It is almost like they are trying to make excuses for the Germans? I say that because what is funny about that statement is.. On one had they want us to belive the Germans 'were aware' since the 30s.. Yet.. We both know that the Me262 was NOT designed in the 20s!

So, you have to ask yourself..

If the Germans 'were aware' of the advantages of a swept wing.. 
Why did the initial design of the Me262 have straight wings?

I don't know what that tells you..

But what that tells me is they either didn't understand it as well as some would have us belive, or, based on what they understood they didn't see it as being a great benefit.. Either of which seem to fit the historic record.. That being most of what the Germans understood of swept wing benefits was based on their studies of 'highly' swept wings. And the Me262 swept wing of only 18 deg is not considered highly swept.

Next up

Originally Posted by STOMRBIRDS.COM

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

This statement is more of a negative than a positive wrt what the Germans knew IMHO..

In that as most realized after WWII.. Those shapely designs of WWII.. what with the wings being shapely molded into the body (like that picture of the Go229 tail section) were more of a negative than a positive.. Based on the work supersonic area rule by Wallace D Hayes.. Which drove most if not all of the post war 50s and 60s high speed designs.

A good example is the Me262 vs P80

Note that both designs are before Hayes work..

Note the point where the wing attaches to the body and how both molded the wings into the body type of a design..

Now take a look at the F86 at the point where the wing attaches to the body.. No longer molded into the body like it was on the Me262 and P80.

That is why the Me262 and P80 are considered more of a 'evolutionary' than a revolutionary' design.. In fact more of a dead end step, in that you will be hard pressed to find any design aspects of the Me262 used in post war designs..

For example, you will be hard pressed to find a jet fighter with the engines mounted under the wings like the Me262 did.. Which some have noted keeps the Me262 from ever breaking the sound barrier.. Granted you can find a lot of post war jet bombers that mount the engines under the wings! Where as the P80 intakes location were ahead of their time, most post war designs placed the inlet at the tip of the nose, but after that (late 50s) most if not all designs placed the intakes at the wing root body location as the P80 did. About the only design aspect of the Me262 that was used in later designs was the 'flying tail' design that certain aspects of which were used in the X1 design that Chuck Yeager flew to break the sound barrier in level flight.

Last but not least we should point out that the folks at STORMBIRDS are Me262 lovers! You would have to be to do what they did! Thus, many have noted that they will paint the Me262 in the best possible light! That is to say give the Germans every benefit of the doubt! But they are not willing to lie about any aspect! Which is why it was so hard for them to admit that the swept wings of the Me262 and the associated benefits were NOT intentional.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Sorry, but that's what you asked. Not unique aspects but any.

I only added the word in 'unique' in my last post to you for clarification..

In that you were listing (counting) Me262 design aspects that other planes already had..

But the question at hand was what design aspects of the Me262 were used in post war fighter jets..

As in what did the Me262 do that no one else was not already doing during the war..

Which stemmed from the 'myth' that the Me262 was the first jet fighter design with the intent of making use of swept wing 'technologies'

But as we now know, the wings on the Me262 were NOT swept with the intend of making use of swept wing technology, the wings were swept to correct the cg

The purpose of pointing that out is that once you remove that FACT.. You would be hard pressed to find any 'unique' design aspects of the Me262 that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

With that in mind..

That is why I found it odd that you would list/count 'jet engines' as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs

Because the USA and Brits both produced jet fighters during WWII that saw service in WWII, thus the jet engine can NOT be listed/counted as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was use in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

So jet engines it is and swept wings.

As noted above, jet engines were not unique to the Me262, and the swept wings were not an intentional design aspect with the purpose of taking advantage of swept wing technology. Thus neither can be listed/counted as Me262 design aspects that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Because that what it was the first swept wing jet fighter in combat service.

It was the first jet fighter in service, whose initial design included straight wings, but was later changed to correct the cg. In short, it was dumb luck that it just so happened that sweeping the wings to correct the cg also improved the high speed characteristics. To make an analogy using the old reese's peanut butter cup commercials.. Where it was dumb luck that a guy with a jar of peanut butter ran into a guy with a chocolate candy bar.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

It don't even matter for what reason it was.

It does when your trying to dispel the myth that the Me262 was the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. As I pointed out before, the history channel types belive that, and the only way to belive that is to belive the Germans were YEARS ahead of everyone else.. Which they would have to be for the Me262 to be the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg, thus the Germans were not as advanced as the history channel would 'lead' people into thinking and thus 'feeding' on the notion that 'sells' that the Germans were some sort of supermen or being assisted by aliean from outer space.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

High speed trial proved the advantage of...
So latest when the thing flew they knew.

Agreed

Just as the guy eating chocolate with peanut butter knew and thus proved the advantage of the combination of the two

Originally Posted by tools4fools

But then there's still the question of the inner wing.

Agreed

There is no proof as to why the inner wing was swept..

But if I had to guess, I would suspect it had something to do with what STORMBIRDS said.. i.e.

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

Aesthetics..

As in it just looked better to do it that way

Originally Posted by tools4fools

V2, first ballistic missile, ahead of its time

Not really..

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

In that even Von Baurn admitted he used many of Robert Goddard's rocket designs from the 20s and 30s in the construction of the V2

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Me 262, first swept wing jet fighter in service, ahead of its time

But not the first intentionally swept wing fighter design

Big difference!


In summary

The history channel type of history that sells is to give the impression that the Me262 showed up out of no where and caught the allies by surprise.

Which was NOT the case

The only 'unique' thing about the Me262 was the swept wings.. Unfortunatly the history channel type of history that sells gives the impression that the swept wings were by design to take advantage of swept wing technology.

Which was NOT the case

As a mater of fact just about every nation involved in WWII..

• Designed a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Prototype a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Produced a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Employed a jet fighter before the end of the war

Therefore one can NOT be safe in saying the Me262 was the sole inspiration of all post WWII jet fighter designs.

With that said..

Maybe it would help you understand my point of view if I gave you an example of a truly unique WWII weapon that did influence the world post WWII?

Take the ABOMB for example

Only one nation involved in WWII..

• Designed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Prototype an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Produced an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Employed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

Therefore one can be safe in saying the ABOMB was the sole inspiration of all post WWII ABOMB designs.

I hope that helps you understand my point of view! S!