Analysis of real life 109E performance for CloD

[Kwiatek]

Tomcat read German speed test for serial 109 E series not manual or prototype.

Most German speed test for serial 109 E claimed 467 km/h (E-3) - 475 km/h (E1) at sea level with 5- mintues emergency power ( 1.3 Ata). Such performacne is confirmed and corensponed very close to speed test made by other countries like Swiss ( E-3 with 601Aa), French or USA.

German test for serial 109 E-1 - 475-476 km/h at 0




German test for serial 109 E-3 - 467 km/h at 0



USA test for serial 109 E-3 - 467 km/h at 0



French test for serial E-3 ( radiator closed) - 480 km/h at 0



Swiss test for serial E-3 with Db601Aa - 467 km/h



Another German manual data for 109 E




There are only 2 different speed results :
- 1 is made for prototype V15a which clearly for me had not hydraulic supercharger but rather 2-stage - still it is for prototype 109E not serial production ones.
- 2 is manual for 109 but there is any information about these data

I belive that 109 E speed at sea level was between 467-475 km/h at 1.3/1.35 Ata (radiator 1/4 open) and faster speed could be possible to achived at 1-minutes take off power 1.4/1.45 Ata but truly speaking it is only for very short time. I dont belive any serial 109 E could do more then 490-500 km/h at sea level and even such speed probably could be achived with extremaly condition.

[TomcatViP]

Again, it's exactly what I am describing:

-Flight test of capt aircraft (we know tht both of those capt'ed 109s had structural failure as one of the french ferry/test pilot is famous for his flight testing postwar (Dassault)).
- Swiss 109 tht were not exactly in the same config of the German built (Yugoslavian were - Romanian shld be also)
-April 39 flight test...
There was only a minority of E model during the campaign of France. Most were D models. So V15 is an early test model. Just like saying in 50years tht tht F35 was not supersonic showing early flight test data. (Pls note tht I am not actually writing tht 109 shld be supersonic in CoD!!!)

....

Regarding the S/C on the 109, he he I am glad to read it from you now

But 450+ is the speed of the MS406 and Curtiss tht french used in majority. The D even was faster than those aircraft. I don't see how the E could hve the very same perf.

Note also tht cruise pow for the DB605 was ard 880HP giving G model a 450+ cruise speed. I don't see how the E cellule with 1100+ HP could be slower.

It's simply a question of logics (perf comparison, flight manuals, history books (reals ones), Maths and logics).

~S

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Tomcat read German speed test for serial 109 E series not manual or prototype.

Most German speed test ...

... you show are not performance tests at all. Two tests shown were aimed at showing the difference between guns installed/unistalled, slats sealed/unsealed.

for serial 109 E claimed 467 km/h (E-3) - 475 km/h (E1) at sea level with 5- mintues emergency power ( 1.3 Ata).

Compared to E-1 running at 1.35ata.... is it really a surprise that planes flying at lower power settings are SLOWER?

Such performacne is confirmed and corensponed very close to speed test made by other countries like Swiss ( E-3 with 601Aa), French or USA.

The French got around 480 with a less powerful engine. The Swiss conditions are unknown completely. The US did not test low altitude performance at all.

There are only 2 different speed results :
- 1 is made for prototype V15a which clearly for me had not hydraulic supercharger but rather 2-stage - still it is for prototype 109E not serial production ones.

Stop making up and spreading this BS again and again about the allaged lack of hydraulic supercharger... its getting tiresome.

The V15a was in every way akin to the 'serial production' 109E types. It was in every way identical to serial production machines, as clearly stated by the report itself.

I belive that 109 E speed at sea level was between 467-475 km/h at 1.3/1.35 Ata (radiator 1/4 open) and faster speed could be possible to achived at 1-minutes take off power 1.4/1.45 Ata but truly speaking it is only for very short time. I dont belive any serial 109 E could do more then 490-500 km/h at sea level and even such speed probably could be achived with extremaly condition.

At that is based on a Swiss graph of which's test conditions we know absolutely nothing, the idea that two uncorrected tests at 1.3ata were representative of 1.35ata performance etc.

It still begs an answer for the question why on earth did Messerschmitt contract for the delivery of 4000 planes at 65 000 Reichmarks each doing 500 km/h and not 460 on the deck.

I guess he was desperate for a 260 million RM deficit for violating the delivery contract's terms...

[Kurfürst]

I am looking for the following information.

What was the top speed of the Spitfire I, at +6 1/2 and +12 at SL, and what power it corresponded to.

What was the top speed of the Spitfire I, at +6 1/2 at rated altitude, and what power it corresponded to.

What was the top speed of the 109E, at 1.3/1.35ata at SL and at rated altitude, and what power it corresponded to.

[Timberwolf]

LoL Everyones talking about top speeds, and Alt speeds ... Most people is using a test from other people and countries. That would fuel up a 109 take it up and see.. One of the most major factors left out was the use of Synthetic fuel that the Germans used. And American testing on German Aircraft. The American fuel which had a higher octane And had a great affect on speeds even more with supercharged planes Yet no one has talked about it just lines from other websites ..and those don't have which fuel was used on the test

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

LoL everyones talking about top speeds and Alt speeds ... Most people is test from other people and countries that would fuel up a 109 take it up and see.. One of the most major factor the use of Synthetic fuel that the germans used To American fuel which had a higher octaneand had a great affect on speeds even more with supercharged planes Yet no one has talked about it just lines from other websites ..and those don't have which fuel was used on the test

How right you are.

But perso I became allergic to all fuel's grade discussion with month arguing my best (with honesty) on the recently closed thread abt 100oct fuel

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

.
It still begs an answer for the question why on earth did Messerschmitt contract for the delivery of 4000 planes at 65 000 Reichmarks each doing 500 km/h and not 460 on the deck.

I guess he was desperate for a 260 million RM deficit for violating the delivery contract's terms...

Messerschmidt did not guarantee 500 kph but 500 +/- 5% so if each 109 would have been at 475 kph it would have been perfectly acceptable.

This means however also that it can fairly be assumed that the speed on the deck should be 475 kph at minimum.

[TomcatViP]

Well Storm,

if you sell 4000 unit of a product that all meet only minimal requirements, you certainly won't sell 29000 more.... even in the complete madness of the Nazi regime. Hve a look at the 210/410 scandal (read the "Fana de l'aviation" 2011 paper )