Still Soooo Porked

[trademe900]

I have observed fires on a he111 but it is extremely rare, not like the ju88 or do17z which seem to be more well rounded in their damage models.

Are you saying 150 hits on a he111 in COD? In il2 yes it's possible but sorry but I don't buy it for il2, you need at least 500 solid hits at deflection bring one down, often it can go to 1000. Quite ridiculous.

Stukas are insanely tough along with the he111.

[tools4fools]

Sometimes I need 500 hits and I think that's already quite a lot - in particular as often it still just goes into the right-turn slower and slower circles but still might take 10min until it actually crashes in the water.
Like this one:
He111down3.jpg

Good deflection and it goes kaboom with very few hits, like this one:
He111down1.jpg

And yes I agree, the result of the damage might be wrong. Like in the He111 I have not have once in all this testing and engine/wing fire or thick black smoke from an engine.

Only thin white or black smoke or massive explosion.

[drewpee]

I think it's fair enough not to expect to kill the pilot from a six o'clock attack but a prolonged burst of mg/cannon fire should rupture lines, snap cables destroy moving parts and wreck flight surfaces. In short damaged ac should be out of the fight and crew should be getting ready to bail out. At the moment such damaged ac are often capable of continued high g evasive maneuvers and some times still deadly to the attacker.

[trademe900]

The ju87 is the real mystery though, the thing is invulnerable!

@tools4fools- yes there are 2 ways the he111 goes down- 1. wing blows off instantly hollywood style with dewilde or 2. put 1000 hits into it and it will slowly decrease in altitude. It will never belch black smoke either, only fuel and coolant vapor. The ju88 and do17z are far more interesting and believable.

[tools4fools]

I did a few more test flights.

Actually you don't need to put 1000 hits in - usually it goes in the slow death circle at latest around 500 hits. Still, that's an awful lot.
If you pump after 500 hits more into it it often doesn't change a thing. Still stays in once piece, and slow death circle...
For the fun of it I tried it once and continued shooting:He111down4.jpg

Important is to shoot at convergence, if you do so even from six you can get the catastorphic explosions - if you hit the right spot:
He111down5.jpg

So I changed the ride, took the 12.7mm guns of the G50. Still no fires. However the nose guns allow for much more accurate hitting in one spot and if you concentrate your fire into one wing it goes down quick and easy:
He111down8.jpg
In the second G50 attack I needed 41hit in left wing, down she went.

Changed the ride again and took a 110. First used MG and cannon, and finally got my fire, center fuselage:
He111down10.jpg

So decided to use cannon only, got my fire again, outer wing this time, but needed 25 hits:
He111down9.jpg

Will do more 20mm tests to check how many hits needed.
Overall it seems that only 20mm can set the thing on fire and that might be the difference with the MG's.
I will test as well the G50 in more flights against the He111 as it easily sets other bombers on fire.
++++++

[Kurfürst]

Rifle caliber hits are extremely ineffective against self sealing tanks. I have a Russian testing result against Bf 109 s-s tank, and they found that up to 20 (!!) hits were sealed when hit my RCMG fire. That's a lot, and the Heinkel fuel tanks are larger and more massive.. getting 20 hits on the same tank so that fuel would start to pour out to everywhere is also very unlikely to me.

[tools4fools]

I have a Russian testing result against Bf 109 s-s tank, and they found that up to 20 (!!) hits were sealed when hit my RCMG fire.

I don't see a problem there with the current model, if hit square and fair the tanks to go kaboom or catch fire. Twin mounted rifle caliber guns show that.

Question is if you hit that tank let's assume with 7 hits on first pass, 9 hits on second pass, 11 hits on third pas, 6 hits on fourth pass you would assume that it catches fire sooner or later and the more passes you make the more total hits you score the more likely it should create a fire as the weaker the tank gets and more vulnerable once fuel starts seeping out of it.
This seems not to be the case however.

I searched, found nothing, but I take it there is no more 'arcade' mode which shows the hit arrows? I loved that feature in IL-2, in particular when testing damage models and your own shooting accuracy.
+++++

[5./JG27.Farber]

Try adding incendiary rounds...

[tools4fools]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Try adding incendiary rounds...

My ammo belts are 4 guns nothing but De Wilde. 4 guns AP and tracer.
Attacks from sides, above, underneath, tried even dead 6 for a change, normally not my style. I never shoot further away than about 170-180 and closing in to under 100. Convergence at 150.

As said a good precise attack needs less than 100 hits to down that He 111. Often I need 150-250, but that is due to rather less than perfect shooting and is the combined hits of 3 passes or so.
Rarely I need 400-500 hits. Rarely.


While I agree and am happy that there isn't fires all over the place it still strikes me a bit odd that in approx 40-50 test attacks on a Heinkel 111 drone I was never able to start a single little fire.
Kabooms, yes, pilot kills yes, thin white stream (coolant, fuel), think black stream (engine oil), loads of holes in the wing areas, ailerons kaputt, elevators shot away, etc, etc.
But never a single little fire.

Now if the tanks are hard to set on fire that's fine with me. But never?
Next would be the engine. Never. No engine fires either?
+++++

[trademe900]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

I did a few more test flights.

Actually you don't need to put 1000 hits in - usually it goes in the slow death circle at latest around 500 hits. Still, that's an awful lot.
If you pump after 500 hits more into it it often doesn't change a thing. Still stays in once piece, and slow death circle...
For the fun of it I tried it once and continued shooting:Attachment 9665

Important is to shoot at convergence, if you do so even from six you can get the catastorphic explosions - if you hit the right spot:
Attachment 9666

So I changed the ride, took the 12.7mm guns of the G50. Still no fires. However the nose guns allow for much more accurate hitting in one spot and if you concentrate your fire into one wing it goes down quick and easy:
Attachment 9670
In the second G50 attack I needed 41hit in left wing, down she went.

Changed the ride again and took a 110. First used MG and cannon, and finally got my fire, center fuselage:
Attachment 9669

So decided to use cannon only, got my fire again, outer wing this time, but needed 25 hits:
Attachment 9671

Will do more 20mm tests to check how many hits needed.
Overall it seems that only 20mm can set the thing on fire and that might be the difference with the MG's.
I will test as well the G50 in more flights against the He111 as it easily sets other bombers on fire.
++++++

25 20mm hits on a he111 wing is far too much! On average it only took 20 20mm to down a gigantic B17! Il2 1946 has this down very well.

It's a definite immersion killer and 1946 is still miles ahead in this regard until they get this damage model at least some what calibrated. Despite more advanced architecture, it's porked currently.

there is also another very important thing to remember here that further puts all of this into perspective and that is that we are far 'better' pilots than the pilots combating these things in 1940, having had hundreds and hundreds of hours blowing up every size and shape aircraft over the years, not to mention the absence of fear- yet countless combat reports and footage reveal the destruction still yielded under their circumstances.