A newbies impression of the 109 and spit

[Crumpp]

So when a maneuver diagrams have values of negative Specific excess power (Ps) and these are used to compare sustained turn performance and energy bleed rates between 2 aircraft what do you call it ?

Total Energy Concepts for Aircraft Performance

It is a specific methodology for quantifying the potential to maneuver. It was initially conceived by Col. John Boyd. It is standard curriculum for the United States Fighter Pilots in the USAF, USN, and USMC.

I can send you a copy of both John Boyd's original paper and the modern methodology if you like.

Using the terms outside of that system has no meaning. It must sound cool, though.

[Crumpp]

I bought a copy of Cliffs of Dover.

[IvanK]

I have Boyds documents. I have used these concepts in aircraft dissimilar performances comparisons for real world tactics development and taught the concepts both in the classroom and in the jet. Its common to pretty much every Air Force in the world.

Fighter pilots use the term "Energy Bleed" everyday its an eloquent way of describing the situation. Fighter pilots are by definition "Cool" so its natural to use cool terminology .... irritates the pencil pushers to no end.

[Crumpp]

Fighter pilots are by definition "Cool"

Ahh not really. Most of them I have seen are pissing their pants on the ground when we get to em.

I did that for much of the first gulf war air campaign. They might be something in a plane but out of it, they were not impressive.

Even less impressive are the ones screaming like a little girl on the radio that ground fire is targeting them, shooting for heavens....especially when lives depend on their getting some bombs on target.

Of course, we where on the ground and the only tracer he saw was that going back and forth between us and the enemy.

AWACs finally ordered that guy off station on his third time coming down to ID targets and fleeing the scene and screaming each time.

One of our European allies, too.

[Crumpp]

I tried out your game. I dove a Spitfire from 17,000 feet at full power in the channel free flight setting on realistic. With the right rudder buried to the stop and jerking the stick back, it not only did not break but I did not even pass out.

[Crumpp]

They might be something in a plane but out of it, they were not impressive.

That is by no means a blanket statement. I have also seen some very good guys up the air.

A couple of A10 pilots, some USMC F-18's, USN F-14's, and a couple of BundesLuftwaffe Tornado pilots stand out in my mind. They earned a seat at the table.

[IvanK]

... Hook line and sinker

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That is by no means a blanket statement. I have also seen some very good guys up the air.

A couple of A10 pilots, some USMC F-18's, USN F-14's, and a couple of BundesLuftwaffe Tornado pilots stand out in my mind. They earned a seat at the table.

I didn't think that Germany lost any Tornado's and cannot find them in my records on the war, can you give any indication as to dates so I can update them? Indeed I didn't think that Germany took part in the war at all so can you supply any information as to how they arrived in the battle zone it would be of interest.