Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The Operating Notes are definative and Notes on the Merlin Engine will reflect the changes in the Flight Information Manual version.

If Operating Notes on the Merlin Engine do not specify 100 Octane for all operational units then the transition in Fighter Command was not complete. If Operating Notes on the Merlin Engine does not mention 100 Octane fuel then it was not the most common fuel.

What do you think all those pilots transitioning from Bomber and Coastal Command would be studying?

You can date the transition by the Operating Notes, they are the primary source for technical changes to the aircraft.

All you have to do is show us proof that RAF FC during the BofB flew at least one, operational squadron, Hurricane/Spitfire 87 octane combat sortie. Just one...

You have presented your thesis and now we want proof.

[DC338]

Crumpp if the British government did break the "law" by not following some peacetime convention. Who would prosecute them? Themselves, ridiculous.

Funny I can't find anything in the Mustang notes about 25lbs of boost either. It did happen however.

[Crumpp]

Crumpp if the British government did break the "law" by not following some peacetime convention.

This is where you need the guy with the party hat icon.

Funny I can't find anything in the Mustang notes about 25lbs of boost either. It did happen however.

Yes it did and it was not the standard for the Mustang either. It was an special condition so it is not found in the Flight Information Manual.

In this case, the claim is 100 Octane fuel was the standard fuel of the RAF in July 1940 and throughout the Battle of Britain.

That is just not true. DtD 230, otherwise known as 87 Octane was the standard fuel of Fighter Command in July 1940 and 100 Octane was in the process of introduction on a limited basis.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That is just not true. DtD 230, otherwise known as 87 Octane was the standard fuel of Fighter Command in July 1940 and 100 Octane was in the process of introduction on a limited basis.

You have the fuel consumption numbers for 87 fuel and 100 fuel for FC to back up your statement?

What is limited basis? I wouldn't say 20+ squadrons out of 55 squadrons is limited basis.

Yes it did and it was not the standard for the Mustang either. It was an special condition so it is not found in the Flight Information Manual.

So this could apply to 100 fuel use then?

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

In this case, the claim is 100 Octane fuel was the standard fuel of the RAF in July 1940 and throughout the Battle of Britain.
.

The claim is that 100 octane was the standard fuel for FC in July 1940, not the RAF. The rest of the RAF were using 87 octane hence the consumption figures

[Crumpp]

The claim is that 100 octane was the standard fuel for FC in July 1940, not the RAF.

You are right, I meant FC.

You can date the transition by the Operating Notes, they are the primary source for technical changes to the aircraft.

It is that simple and elegant, guys. No need to construct elaborate arguments based on circumstance and assumption.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

You are right, I meant FC.

You can date the transition by the Operating Notes, they are the primary source for technical changes to the aircraft.

It is that simple and elegant, guys. No need to construct elaborate arguments based on circumstance and assumption.

No you cannot. You calculate the dates from when the fuel was delivered and used using official documents. That isn't an assumption, its a fact, its simple and foolproof.

Trying to calculate when it was used based on a 1942 copy of a pilots notes for a plane that isn't in use in operational squadrons, isn't just an assumption, its a pipedream.

PS using your Logistic hat you might want to comment on :-

Putting the Logistical Hat on again its interesting to look at the Basic Logistical details we know for the two cases
For the roll out to FC we know
a) Who made the decision
b) That testing was complete in 1939
c) Which stations were to have it issued to IN THE FIRST INSTANCE
d) How it was to be rolled out
e) That the Oil Committee considered the roll out to be complete in May
Note - all the above is supported by official original records held in the NA

For the 16 FC squadrons + 2 Bomber squadrons
a) We don't know who made the decision to continue with this program once war started
b) We don't know that phase IV testing was on going in 1940
c) We don't know which squadrons or which stations were supposed to have the 100 Octane
d) We don't know how it was to be rolled out
e) If this theory is correct, We don't know when the rest of FC had 100 Octane issued
f) We do know that the limit of 2 squadrons of Bombers mentioned in this paper was disregarded, which must question why the fighter limit is supposed to be maintained

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Putting the Logistical Hat on again its interesting to look at the Basic Logistical details we know for the two cases
For the roll out to FC we know
a) Who made the decision
b) That testing was complete in 1939
c) Which stations were to have it issued to IN THE FIRST INSTANCE
d) How it was to be rolled out
e) That the Oil Committee considered the roll out to be complete in May
Note - all the above is supported by official original records held in the NA

Almost got it correct, but just like Mike, you seem to have missed a small detail mentioned in those "official records in the NA".

And that is all the papers talk of select fighter and bomber stations. I am sorry, I know you would like to forget that part, but that seems to be a major fly in the ointment of your whole thesis.

[Crumpp]

No you cannot.

Sure you can...

based on a 1942 copy of a pilots notes

I am sure there are other editions out there besides the January 1942 Operating Notes.

Remember, FC was accepting pilots from any branch of service to fill its shortages. Transitioning pilots would have started their journey studying the Flight Information Manual version of the Operating Notes.

You calculate the dates from when the fuel was delivered

No you can't....

You can only answer the question, "When did the RAF get fuel to all of its stations?"

The aircraft have to be modified. That modification is a major alteration that was scheduled to be done at Service Inspection. It is not something performed by the squadron maintenance personnel.

The parts have to be made to do the modification and parts have to be made to support current production as well as sustainment spares.

The only way to answer an operational question is with operational documentation. In this case, the document which details the operation of the aircraft is the Operating Notes. The portion that is a legal document connected to the airworthiness of the aircraft will reflect the latest authorization for the type.

The statement "all Fighter Command was using 100 Octane July 1940" is not backed up by the facts.

The statement "100 Octane was used during the Battle of Britain" is correct and backed up by the facts.

It is clear that Fighter Command was in process of adopting the fuel but it is equally clear that process was not complete in July 1940. There is no agreement on the end dates for the Battle of Britain. So, depending on the dates one chooses for the battle to end, the process was or was not completed during the battle itself.