Speed graphs for Spitfire and Hurricane

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

The papers you have posted clearly state that the results were not adjusted to the nominal engine outputs. They are not performance test but comparison flights with various installations (guns present/not present, slats sealed/unsealed).

Where you find it that there is lower engine outputs???

In these documents - German documents there is clearly 1.3 Ata and 1/4 radiator open. And these is serial production planes.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

And in all likelyhood, they are all done using the high altitude blower (FS gear in English terms) for the trial.


The flight test results. I see a trend here. The three test you have posted we know that they were done at a lower boost setting, with the results not having been corrected to guaranteed engine outputs, and we do not know if, during the tests, they used MS or FS gear.

From where you get these about MS or FS gear??? 109 E had hydraulic supercharger which surly was not used in V15 prototype nothing more.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Serial 109 E-1/ E-3 speed at the deck for 1.35 Ata was 500 km/h. Don't argue with me, argue with Willy Messerschmitt who sold these planes and guaranteed in the contract that each and every one of them will do within 5% tolerance of 500 km/h.



No, 500 km/h is the official specification for the serial produced Bf 109E.

I would really like to see your speed charts for SERIAL 109 E which confirm these beacuse until now i didnt saw any. But for contatry i saw many which show 467-475 km/h not more.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

My source, which I already posted, says the 109E could do 497 km/h at 1.35ata, with 1/4 open radiators, without overheating.

For prototype 109 V15 yes with no hydraulic supercharger. But next serial production 109 E tests speed didnt copy these.

Moreover other county (Swiss, French, US) speed test for serial 109 E confirmed German test for serial planes.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

I'd like to see your source which contradicts that.

You alreay saw it page before. German documents from test speed for SERIAL planes not from one prototype and german prospect.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Where you find it that there is lower engine outputs???

It says there, right in the documents you have posted. Please translate, for all.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

In these documents - German documents there is clearly 1.3 Ata and 1/4 radiator open. And these is serial production planes.

Actually, none of them are serial production planes. The two planes you have posted are pre-production planes for a batch of 14. And they are exactly identical to WNr. 1774.

From where you get these about MS or FS gear???

It says right there, Bodenlader, Hohenlader. MS gear, FS gear.

109 E had hydraulic supercharger which surly was not used in V15 prototype nothing more.

Source please.

BTW some G-6s tested at Rechlin show the same pattern. The 109s hydraulic supercharger could operate in MS or FS gear, if it is set so.

I would really like to see your speed charts for SERIAL 109 E which confirm these beacuse until now i didnt saw any.

Here, again:



And this is the official specification for 109E, guaranteed within +/- 5% by the manufacturer.

But for contatry i saw many which show 467-475 km/h not more.

We have already discussed this. The tests you have posted are probably done in FS gear, which yields less performance than MS gear near SL.

For prototype 109 V15 yes with no hydraulic supercharger.

Source for no hydraulic supercharger please.

But next serial production 109 E tests speed didnt copy these.

Especially as there was never any DB 601 w/o a hydraulic supercharger..

Moreover other county (Swiss, French, US) speed test for serial 109 E confirmed German test for serial planes.

We have discussed this. The Swiss trials, though no details are available, are comparing various propeller designs, and are again likely at FS gear.

The French tests actually closely agree with the nominal specs, the French themselves state it so.

The US test, of which's conditions we know absolutely nothing, did not test SL speed at all - they did not measure speed below 12 000 feet - there's no data point there marked... it's just a rough extrapolation. Oh, and just for the record, the US tests also seem to have measured both FS gear and MS gear. They measured ca. 335 mph at 12 000 feet (540 kph at 3657 m), that's pretty much the same the Germans measured in FS gear on WNr 1174 / V15a.

I am curious why you did not post the testing details though. Testing details are very important, an open radiator can chop off 50 km/h from top speed, for example.

You alreay saw it page before. German documents from test speed for SERIAL planes not from one prototype and german prospect.

Oh. You mean the papers which are not corrected for guaranteed engine outputs, are likely done at the less optimal FS instead of MS gear, and were never meant to measure the absolute performance of serial produced aircraft but relative speed difference of various installations, and was not done on serial production aircraft if that's so important for you.

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

It says there, right in the documents you have posted. Please translate, for all.

I translated there is not information about confirmed lower power output but only about correct mainfold pressure, temperature and not guarantee engine power - nothing more. No info about lower power output.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

It says right there, Bodenlader, Hohenlader. MS gear, FS gear.

Exacly that why it looks that V15 prototype didnt used variable hydraulic supercharget but only 2 position one. With variable supercharger speed polars will be much more smooth.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Source please.

Please - Your own site:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...w_109V15a.html

" It appears that variable-speed hydraulic supercharger control was either not present or not engaged in the tests (ie. testing seperately with both supercharger gears) : low-altitude and high-altitude supercharger speeds were engaged at a given boost pressure, therefore the curves do not show the characteristic shape of the DB power curve - this would result in a more smooth,curved transition and improved in performance between the supercharger`s two critical altitudes (ca between 2200 and 4800m) in level flight."

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Here, again:

Again for prototype V15 and German prospect not FOR SERIAL PRODUCTION plane. Nothing knew. I would like to see such speeds for serial planes.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

We have already discussed this. The tests you have posted are probably done in FS gear, which yields less performance than MS gear near SL.

Suorce? I dont see any information about these.

As we know serial production 109 E had variable hydraulic supercharger so how and for what would like to disable MS gear????

Maby Germans, Frenchs, Swiss and Americans made phone call and decided to blocked MS gear in their 109 for test?

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

We have discussed this. The Swiss trials, though no details are available, are comparing various propeller designs, and are again likely at FS gear.

Again totally bulshit for me and not confirmed anywhere.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

I translated there is not information about confirmed lower power output but only about correct mainfold pressure, temperature and not guarantee engine power - nothing more. No info about lower power output.

Ok, so we have established that your tests were not corrected for nominal engine outputs, and therefore, irrevelant as we do not know what powers were developed during the tests.

Hint: We know exactly in the case

Exacly that why it looks that V15 prototype didnt used variable hydraulic supercharget but only 2 position one. With variable supercharger speed polars will be much more smooth.

Problem is, you do not seem to understand how the hydraulic coupling the DB 601 works. It has two oil pumps, one constant supply (fixed speed, MS, thats the first "straight" line up to around 2000 m in the power curves), one variable supply to set the amount of slip (speed of supercharger) via oil pressure. You can set the second one for full oil delivery, and voila, it operates exactly like a fixed speed supercharger with two fixed ratio gears.

Please - Your own site:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...w_109V15a.html

" It appears that variable-speed hydraulic supercharger control was either not present or not engaged in the tests (ie. testing seperately with both supercharger gears) : low-altitude and high-altitude supercharger speeds were engaged at a given boost pressure, therefore the curves do not show the characteristic shape of the DB power curve - this would result in a more smooth,curved transition and improved in performance between the supercharger`s two critical altitudes (ca between 2200 and 4800m) in level flight."

Well you just have to read it now I think... I have bolded it out for ya.

Again for prototype V15 and German prospect not FOR SERIAL PRODUCTION plane. Nothing knew. I would like to see such speeds for serial planes.

Again I suggest you read the conditions of the airfame for the V15. Its the same as the serial production airplane.

As for the speeds for serial production planes, it can be read here. 500 km/h at SL.
http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

Suorce? I dont see any information about these.

As we know serial production 109 E had variable hydraulic supercharger so how and for what would like to disable MS gear????

I do not know. "Disabling" the MS gear is easy - you just have to set the barometric control so that the second oil pump in the hydraulic coupling operates at maximum delivery, and voila, the hydralic coupling operates now at minimum slip and maximum supercharger speed.

As noted, G-6 tested at Rechlin shows the same. I suppose more accurate figures can be collected.

Maby Germans, Frenchs, Swiss and Americans made phone call and decided to blocked MS gear in their 109 for test?

The French definietely did not, but they got similar results to the V15 trials.

The rest is plainly in the files. Both V15 trial and the US trial show that they tested both in MS and FS gear. The Swiss is a bit of a guesswork, but then explain me:

a) Why did the Swiss get a straight curve instead of a curved one, ie. a characteristic feature of the DB's barometric control, *when engaged*
b) Why did the Swiss get a result exactly like the Germans in V15 trials while using the Hohenlader (FS gear).

Again totally bulshit for me and not confirmed anywhere.

Well again the Swiss tests show exactly the same results as WNr 1774 tests in MS gear. Mere coincidence? I don't think so. No less than 35-40 km/h difference between planes? I do not think so either.

Please translate the text below, then explain how it is different from the "serial production" E-1. Especially the Motorhaube noch roh, Rückstoßer oben unverkleidet part.

An Bf 109 V 15 a, der Mustermachine für die E-1-Serie, wurden die Geschwindigkeitsleistungen erflogen. Aus Zeitmengel konnten nicht die günstigen Rückstoßer
und Ansaughutzen erflogen werden, sodaß evtl. noch Leistungssteigerungen möglich sind.

Zustand des Flugwerkes. Oberfläche : serienmäßiger Anstrich, Motorhaube noch roh, Rückstoßer oben unverkleidet. 2 Flügel- und 2 Hauben-MG eingebaut. Eindrahtantenne. Fahrwehr eingezogen, Sporn außen.