Speed graphs for Spitfire and Hurricane

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Thank you klem. This is so far the best post in this thread.

Banks, could you see PM please? Thx.

[Buchon]

This whole thing of Reds and Blues and the sides are getting my nerves

I´m a happy camper single-player of awesome historical custom missions made by the community mostly.

I don't care about Reds and Blues as I don't play online but I care about historical accuracy.

The B6 Spitfire graph (for example) is showing a really accurate performance line, Knowing a few things as the problems of the FM at high altitudes, the boost is not modeled well into the game (but will be later), and that it´s 87 octanes (obviously).

That´s pretty good results.

In fact is the most accurate performance line in-game now, because there planes with real problems there, the 109 performance line is a roller coaster compared to this for example.

But you guys are arguing and twisting this over for Red or blue sake ? really ?

Also ... conspiracy theory ? really ??!!

Get a grip for everyone's sake pls.


This is a really good post, providing performance data for historical sake, watch and learn :

Originally Posted by klem

BlackSix

This page gives sea level to 29,000 feet figures for the Spitfire with Merlin III @ 6.25lbs boost:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
and this gives it for the Hurricane:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rricane-I.html

I've placed your Patch Data on top of these and projected the sea level speeds (see attached) and both are looking too slow from sea level to 20k and 16k respectively. At sea level the Spitfire is looking to be 255mph instead of 283mph (28mph slow) and the Hurricane 240mph instead of 262mph (22mph slow).

Can you please confirm that the patch FM is still being adjusted to RL data (or that it will be)?

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by klem

BlackSix

This page gives sea level to 29,000 feet figures for the Spitfire with Merlin III @ 6.25lbs boost:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
and this gives it for the Hurricane:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rricane-I.html

I've placed your Patch Data on top of these and projected the sea level speeds (see attached) and both are looking too slow from sea level to 20k and 16k respectively. At sea level the Spitfire is looking to be 255mph instead of 283mph (28mph slow) and the Hurricane 240mph instead of 262mph (22mph slow).

Can you please confirm that the patch FM is still being adjusted to RL data (or that it will be)?

Yeah I did it by hand yesterday on top of the Kwiatek charts of the Hurricane, and wrote here the same ... Hurricane is penalized below 3000 m ... again, provided that the historical test data is reliable.

Cheers,
Ins

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Insuber

Yeah I did it by hand yesterday on top of the Kwiatek charts of the Hurricane, and wrote here the same ... Hurricane is penalized below 3000 m ... again, provided that the historical test data is reliable.

Cheers,
Ins

This seems to be a common characteristic of the upcoming FM: Speeds at low altitudes are lower than the reference values.
The Bf 109 can compensate it by unhistorical WEP. Let's hope they will look at the Bf 109 FM for the final patch, the drop above FTH is significant. Looking at the graphs of G.50 and Blenheim it seems to be possible to limit take-off boost to certain altitudes, why isn't that done for the Bf 109?

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by klem

BlackSix

This page gives sea level to 29,000 feet figures for the Spitfire with Merlin III @ 6.25lbs boost:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
and this gives it for the Hurricane:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rricane-I.html

I've placed your Patch Data on top of these and projected the sea level speeds (see attached) and both are looking too slow from sea level to 20k and 16k respectively. At sea level the Spitfire is looking to be 255mph instead of 283mph (28mph slow) and the Hurricane 240mph instead of 262mph (22mph slow).

Can you please confirm that the patch FM is still being adjusted to RL data (or that it will be)?

Looks very bad for low altitude even only for 6 1/2 lbs performacne

Not mention of absense 100 Octan fuel performacne

So thats why we didn't get full altitude speed polars of British fighters on graph?

Comone 1C i belive you could do it much closier to RL data the same you could make +12 lbs boost implement for British fighters!

Idea with blocked/unblocked Boost Cut-Out depend of using type of fuel octan is really not bad. Try it before patch relase plz !!!

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Thanks, Black Six. At last we finally know why the Spitfire Ia's top speed at sea level is 240 mph. The slope of the curve was simply applied to the 0 - 3000 m gap in information, so 0 feet = 240 mph. Mystery solved.

Yes, judging from the graph the Spitfire lost pre-patch 30km/h for each 1000 m of altitude (from 530 at 4000 to 500 at 3000). At the same pace it will end up with 400km/h at 0 m (= 250mph).

Post-patch it seems to be slightly less (Maybe I just want so see that), maybe 25km/h for each 1000m. This would result in 415km/h (=260mph).

Of course that won't help much against the 460/490 km/h of the Bf 109.

IMHO the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values. However the WEP, which was historically available for the Bf 109 only for take-off and up to 1-1.5km gives the in-game Bf 109 a huge speed advantage.

[41Sqn_Banks]

m	S	H	109W	109
0			490	460
1000			510	480
2000		435	530	500
3000	490	455	550	520
4000	510	480	570	540
5000	540	505	580	570
6000	560	520	560	560
7000	560	495	520	520
8000	540	455		
9000	520			
10000

Those are the values I used for the graph, maybe someone can check it to rule out reading errors by myself.

S= Spitfire
H= Hurricane
109W = Bf 109 WEP
109 = Bf 109 no WEP

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Yes, judging from the graph the Spitfire lost pre-patch 30km/h for each 1000 m of altitude (from 530 at 4000 to 500 at 3000). At the same pace it will end up with 400km/h at 0 m (= 250mph).

Post-patch it seems to be slightly less (Maybe I just want so see that), maybe 25km/h for each 1000m. This would result in 415km/h (=260mph).

Of course that won't help much against the 460/490 km/h of the Bf 109.

IMHO the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values. However the WEP, which was historically available for the Bf 109 only for take-off and up to 1-1.5km gives the in-game Bf 109 a huge speed advantage.

I agree with all but the "the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values". The Ia's base speed of 240 mph with NO boost cut out control modelled in this game make them easy meat for 109's in the vast majority of online action. Yes, I would prefer to engage 109's above 16,000 feet but frequently there is no choice -- nor initiative -- possible in online action.

The devs must be aware of this inequity and prefer the 109's to have the overwhelming speed advantage in low altitude engagements; otherwise they would have corrected it a year ago with a hotfix. Now it's apparent that they've chosen to further widen the gap in low level performance for reasons of their own. Many CoD 109 pilots are pleased by this, but others have voiced concern at what they themselves perceive to be a deterioration in gameplay in terms of challenging opposition.

So be it.

[SEE]

I think many RED players will have to discipline themselves to stay above 6000m if the Spit1a is the only allied fighter on a server and draw the ME109 into high alt combat. For me that is how it should be but, even so, the planned reduction of 20km/hr below 6000m in a Spit Mk1a is controversial to say the least.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by SEE

I think many RED players will have to discipline themselves to stay above 6000m if the Spit1a is the only allied fighter on a server and draw the ME109 into high alt combat. For me that is how it should be but, even so, the planned reduction of 20km/hr below 6000m in a Spit Mk1a is controversial to say the least.

Going to be a bit of a problem when the enemies bombers are flying at @4000m though.

I'm beginning to doubt we will ever see 12lbs performance for red planes, but we'll see.