Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

E-7 entered service in the second half of August 1940. 186 were delivered by the end of October, 1940.

Basically the same case as the Spitfire II.

Oh yes I am aware of that. Spitfire Mk.II was actually ready a bit sooner (early June 1940) than E-7 or Hurricane Mk.II (late August / September and thereofre being quite rare). I guess that's why the Mk.II Spits are present in the game - rare but still quite typical in BoB skies. The other two were absolutely marginal for BoB but important at the later stage. I hope to see them all modelled one day.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Oh yes I am aware of that. Spitfire Mk.II was actually ready a bit sooner (early June 1940) than E-7 or Hurricane Mk.II (late August / September and thereofre being quite rare). I guess that's why the Mk.II Spits are present in the game - rare but still quite typical in BoB skies. The other two were absolutely marginal for BoB but important at the later stage. I hope to see them all modelled one day.

I'm sure, much more E-7 fought in the BoB than G.50

[Osprey]

So what we've established is that the 2 100 octane whiners here who can't see what everybody else sees don't even fly IL2 COD. So why are you here? Bugger off and leave us alone, it's none of your business.

PS, Kurfurst, if you could read I explained why I didn't vote for it.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

I'm sure, much more E-7 fought in the BoB than G.50

Yes, of course. I was comparing the main forces in the Battle - Luftwaffe and RAF. Italian presence was marginal, but it's cool we've got them in the game. E-7s were as common as Mk.Ib Spitfires in the actual Battle. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see them all in the sim. I am sure the devis will have this version ready for BoM (both E-7 and F variants I would guess) and having them in Channel scenario is very likely imho... I don't really know what the numbers were and I don't care all that much + it would only lead to further arguements.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Robo.

E-7s were as common as Mk.Ib Spitfires in the actual Battle.

No, it wasn't. "The first examples were delivered to No.19 Sqn at Duxford in June 1940, but when the unit went into action two months later its aircraft were plagued with chronic cannon jams, and the Spitfire Ibs were hastily replaced with all-machine gun Spitfire IIa within days". (Osprey Duel 05 - Spit vs 109 p.24)

It can't be called "just as rare" as the E-7. 186 were delivered by the end of October, 1940, and this aircrafts has not been withdrawn at all As Winny mentioned, it is about the same as the IIa...

When the Hispano has been mentioned anyway, why not in the game, it was not for the reason that it would be rare:
"- Can we have a Spitfire with Hispano Suiza 20mm cannon?
- We discussed this with some members of the community a while ago and decided that it makes no sense. If we make the guns realistically crappy and unreliable no one will fly it. And if we make the weapons unrealistically reliable it will completely shift the balance and give the Allies a huge advantage. We do not need to add another questionable feature to the project and give the fans another thing no one can agree upon, except to say that we suck." (BlackSix's Q&A 12-28-2011)

Originally Posted by Robo.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see them all in the sim. I am sure the devis will have this version ready for BoM (both E-7 and F variants I would guess)

We dont know, what will be the planeset of BoM. I'm afraid that when we get it, I will be slightly obsolete...

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

It can't be called "just as rare" as the E-7.

Ok, rare, but not quite like the Spit Mk.Ib, that was just a funny example (I agree on 1c's insight on Ibs btw). I am not sure about the numbers of the subypes in the second half of the Battle - I certainly didn't know that there were 186 E-7 in October over the Channel area. Fair enough. The numbers are very difficult to prove and often contradicting and complicated with subtypes and post-overhaul conversions. Same with propeller types on Spitfires and Hurricanes in the first half...

Anyone with some good data on the topic?

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Ok, rare, but not quite like the Spit Mk.Ib, that was just a funny example (I agree on 1c's insight on Ibs btw). I am not sure about the numbers of the subypes in the second half of the Battle - I certainly didn't know that there were 186 E-7 in October over the Channel area. Fair enough. The numbers are very difficult to prove and often contradicting and complicated with subtypes and post-overhaul conversions. Same with propeller types on Spitfires and Hurricanes in the first half...

Anyone with some good data on the topic?

I agree about working out how many E-7s there were; for example W.Nr 3523 was rebuilt from an E-1 in August 1940, but it did not appear to have had an operational life with any Jagdstaffel until reaching JG5 in early 1942. Do you mean delivered or operational?

Just a quick look through The Battle of Britain Then and Now Vol 5: the first E-7 I can find is W.Nr 2029 of I/LG 2 which was shot down at 4:15 pm on September 11. From memory LG2 was one of the first units to use E-7s?

[whoarmongar]

With two fighters constantly being developed and in service throughout the entire war (the 109 and Spit) with various different models and many intrim variants it seems to me that the date of any scenario is of upmost importance. It appears some people like to "stretch" the date of the BoB so as to include the latest variant, more potent model of their favorite fighter.
Personally I dont see a place for the cannon Spit in the BoB. However if it were implemented into CoD I dont think the reliability of the cannon would be an issue as it was caused by icing at high altitude and CoD Spitfires never reach high altitude.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Oh yes I am aware of that. Spitfire Mk.II was actually ready a bit sooner (early June 1940) than E-7 or Hurricane Mk.II (late August / September and thereofre being quite rare). I guess that's why the Mk.II Spits are present in the game - rare but still quite typical in BoB skies. The other two were absolutely marginal for BoB but important at the later stage. I hope to see them all modelled one day.

It's actually a little later I think.. 1st SpitII was delivered to 601 Sqn. on 22nd August. There were 195 of them by the end of October. As there were 22 Spitfire squadrons by then, it's the majority of Spitfires in service at the end of the battle. (roughly 22 x 12 = Total operational Spitfires = 264-ish) FC total operational Fighters including Hurricanes peaked at 764.

I'd have to sit down and work out the deliveries for more accurate figures, this is ball park.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by winny

It's actually a little later I think.. 1st SpitII was delivered to 601 Sqn. on 22nd August. There were 195 of them by the end of October. As there were 22 Spitfire squadrons by then, it's the majority of Spitfires in service at the end of the battle. (roughly 22 x 12 = Total operational Spitfires = 264-ish) FC total operational Fighters including Hurricanes peaked at 764.

I'd have to sit down and work out the deliveries for more accurate figures, this is ball park.

Quite possible, as I say I don't even want to go down that path. Just for the record, my data was from 'The narrow margin' (Wood & Dempster) - ''Although the first Mk II Spitfires were delivered to the RAF on June 3rd 1940, there were still more Mk Is produced than the Mk IIs. In fact the comparison figure was 1,531 to 920.''. Fair enough.