Friday Update, April 13, 2012

[335th_GRAthos]

It is twice the roll rate of the Spitfire (according to the graph posted)


@ V101 Tom: Thanks for the link, I did not know it!

~S~

[Osprey]

It appears there's a lot you don't know Grathos, you missed something in the graph but you've assumed to the benefit of the 109. What a surprise.......

The difference between you and I is that I am interested in the facts of the matter whereas you are interested in items that benefit the 109, ergo, you online. Please please please go away from here and spend your days on Kurfursts site which I am sure will have you most aroused.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Let's put this one to bed shall we.

The Spitfire roll rate was improved dramatically with metal ailerons. The 109 could only out roll the Spitfire at low speeds, at high speeds it locked up. At present in the game the controls for the 109 don't seem to lock up anywhere near as much as they should. Hopefully this will get fixed.

I don't know if this graph represents fabric or metal ailerons


"The RAE reported: "At 400 m.p.h. the Me.109 pilot, pushing sideways with all his strength, can only apply 1/5 aileron, thereby banking 45 deg. in about 4 secs.; on the Spitfire also, only 1/5 aileron can be applied at 400 m.p.h., and again the time to bank is 45 deg. in 4 secs. Both aeroplanes thus have their rolling manoeuvrability at high speeds seriously curtailed by aileron heaviness."

Note that the above information is a copy-paste job from a Mike Williams article, well known in the aviation community for its tendency to use manipulated evidence to further an agenda. In this case, the graph from the actual British 1940 report was cropped, hiding the fact that the (early) Spitfire (with fabric ailerons) required far higher stick forces to roll at high speed than the 109E.

The full graph - which was cropped for obvious reasons on Mike Williams's wwiiaircraftperformance 'website' - can be seen below:



The full British trial report can be read here:

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

The Germans had also tested the Spitfire and Hurricane against their fighters. In agreement with the British testing team, they concluded that the Spitfire was inferior in roll to the 109E. They also found that the Spitfire had longitudal stability issues:

"The rolling ability of the enemy fighters at high speeds is worse than that of the Bf 109.
Quick changes of the trajectory along the vertical axis cause especially with the Spitfire
load changes around the cranial axis, coming from high longitudinal thrust momemtum, and
significantly disturb the aiming."

Can be read at full here: http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...g_Aug1940.html

Given our experience of the often doctored and manipulated reports on Mike William's website, I would advise caution and not to take them at face value.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Note that the above information is a copy-paste job from a Mike Williams article, well known in the aviation community for its tendency to use manipulated evidence to further an agenda.

Gentle reader, please note that this Hungarian Lunatic Kurfurt-Barbarrossa-Isegrim is an obsessive, compulsive, intellectually dishonest professional LIAR whom has been Permanently life time banned from wikipedia for a variety of offenses, including harassment, and various other flight sim and aviation forums for his habitually mendacious and calculated campaign of utterly unfounded, ridiculous revisionist bullsh*t. He is a complete and utter Menace to the cause of Truth.

*Mods, ban me now, but with God as my witness, I speak the truth. He is a LIAR. A disruptive, sick in the head lunatic. Plain and simple. Proper nutter. *

Whatever, Kurf. No, you're getting the time of day. You are a Liar. You should be *bleepin* ashamed of yourself. That is all.

[CWMV]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

Note that the above information is a copy-paste job from a Mike Williams article, well known in the aviation community for its tendency to use manipulated evidence to further an agenda.

Gentle reader, please note that this Hungarian Lunatic Kurfurt-Barbarrossa-Isegrim is an obsessive, compulsive, intellectually dishonest professional LIAR whom has been Permanently life time banned from wikipedia for a variety of offenses, including harassment, and various other flight sim and aviation forums for his habitually mendacious and calculated campaign of utterly unfounded, ridiculous revisionist bullsh*t. He is a complete and utter Menace to the cause of Truth.

*Mods, ban me now, but with God as my witness, I speak the truth. He is a LIAR. A disruptive, sick in the head lunatic. Plain and simple. Proper nutter. *

Whatever, Kurf. No, you're getting the time of day. You are a Liar. You should be *bleepin* ashamed of yourself. That is all.

Great post, but there seems to be something wrong as I don't see the original documents/scans that were attached to your post.

I know you wouldn't make an ass of yourself, calling someone else many horrible things, without having a point other than to slander someone.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by CWMV

Great post, but there seems to be something wrong as I don't see the original documents/scans that were attached to your post.

I know you wouldn't make an ass of yourself, calling someone else many horrible things, without having a point other than to slander someone.

Mate, save yourself time, what he wrote is true sadly. I have seen the wiki arguments, you can too but honestly, I don't want to waste more time with this maniac.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Originally Posted by CWMV

Great post, but there seems to be something wrong as I don't see the original documents/scans that were attached to your post.

I know you wouldn't make an ass of yourself, calling someone else many horrible things, without having a point other than to slander someone.

Thanks for the concern, but there is nothing whatsoever "wrong" with my post, (other than perhaps being OT) it is factually correct in its entirety. He has been life time, permanently banned from wikipedia as well as repeatedly banned from other forums for multiple reasons. A statement generally cannot be 'slander' when it is written, not spoken, and is in fact true. I know you wouldn't make an ass of yourself without checking the actual meaning of a word first. Oops a daisy.

Just thought I'd give folks a friendly heads up. Zaps version was perhaps more diplomatic.

Anyways, I don't have the time.....and its all been done before. Ad nauseum.

Cheers.

Out.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

Note that the above information is a copy-paste job from a Mike Williams article, well known in the aviation community for its tendency to use manipulated evidence to further an agenda.

Gentle reader, please note that this Hungarian *fanatic* Kurfurt-Barbarrossa-Isegrim is an obsessive, compulsive, intellectually dishonest *perpetual repeat offender* whom has been Permanently life time banned from wikipedia for a variety of offenses, including*deliberate falsification of information to suit his needs*, harassment, and also been banned repeatedly from various other flight sim and aviation forums for his habitually mendacious and calculated misinformation campaign of utterly unfounded, ridiculous revisionist nonsense He is a complete and utter Menace to those seaking a logical rational debate on any ww2 aviation related matter.

mods please note: just edited the possible infraction causing wording out of his post

RCAF_FB_Orville, i was about to say something similar when i saw his name pop up ........

dear casual forum readers,
- if you are new to these forums, you have just encountered kurfurst, who has the dubious title of lufwhiner-nr1 in these circles, and it is a title he cherishes (yet doesnt comprehend) . he has been repeatedly found out to deliberately use misleading and false information on numerous occasions, and his aggressive intolerant and malicious conduct towards many other forum users has over the years resulted in him being banned repeatedly from most of the main aviation forums that deal with ww2.
- given the amount of information he has accumulated over the years to drive his obsession, he will occasionally come out with something factual and correct, but only ever consider that possibility after carefull examination of all the facts with the highest degree of suspicion and caution, and even then on most occasions you will find out later you have been misled and tricked into accepting something that doesnt turn out to be true in the end. so reader be aware, and approach with great caution at your own risk !

[Goanna1]

Originally Posted by zapatista

mods please note: just edited the possible infraction causing wording out of his post

RCAF_FB_Orville, i was about to say something similar when i saw his name pop up ........

dear casual forum readers,
- if you are new to these forums, you have just encountered kurfurst, who has the dubious title of lufwhiner-nr1 in these circles, and it is a title he cherishes (yet doesnt comprehend) . he has been repeatedly found out to deliberately use misleading and false information on numerous occasions, and his aggressive intolerant and malicious conduct towards many other forum users has over the years resulted in him being banned repeatedly from most of the main aviation forums that deal with ww2.
- given the amount of information he has accumulated over the years to drive his obsession, he will occasionally come out with something factual and correct, but only ever consider that possibility after carefull examination of all the facts with the highest degree of suspicion and caution, and even then on most occasions you will find out later you have been misled and tricked into accepting something that doesnt turn out to be true in the end.so reader be aware, and approach with great caution at your own risk !

Right on Zapista good call-
As for Mr K. --Just another Internet egoist who possibly has only 'virtual friends' for which to communicate with--- pity!!

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

Note that the above information is a copy-paste job from a Mike Williams article, well known in the aviation community for its tendency to use manipulated evidence to further an agenda.

Gentle reader, please note that this Hungarian Lunatic Kurfurt-Barbarrossa-Isegrim is an obsessive, compulsive, intellectually dishonest professional LIAR whom has been Permanently life time banned from wikipedia for a variety of offenses, including harassment, and various other flight sim and aviation forums for his habitually mendacious and calculated campaign of utterly unfounded, ridiculous revisionist bullsh*t. He is a complete and utter Menace to the cause of Truth.

*Mods, ban me now, but with God as my witness, I speak the truth. He is a LIAR. A disruptive, sick in the head lunatic. Plain and simple. Proper nutter. *

Whatever, Kurf. No, you're getting the time of day. You are a Liar. You should be *bleepin* ashamed of yourself. That is all.

+1

He genuinely is. It's funny how he undermines the graph I posted showing roll rate, but posts and IDENTICAL graph showing roll rate plus some other stuff that nobody was talking about.

Grathos, time to get the tissues out.