Friday Update, April 13, 2012

[JG52Uther]

All RAF fighters should fly in three's, in very tight formation, and maybe have a 'weaver' flying at the back, preferably a new poorly trained guy.
You'll be fine...

Later in the battle the LW fighters will all be flying close escort to the bombers anyway, so you RAF guys can bring your 'big wing' into play. If you are smart, you won't engage until the 109's are at the limit of endurance, and have to turn back, then you can attack and break up the bomber formations.
Should be great fun with no CTD's and big formations!

[addman]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

All RAF fighters should fly in three's, in very tight formation, and maybe have a 'weaver' flying at the back, preferably a new poorly trained guy.
You'll be fine...

Later in the battle the LW fighters will all be flying close escort to the bombers anyway, so you RAF guys can bring your 'big wing' into play. If you are smart, you won't engage until the 109's are at the limit of endurance, and have to turn back, then you can attack and break up the bomber formations.
Should be great fun with no CTD's and big formations!

LOL! That's comedy gold right there, never gonna happen. LOL!

[JG52Uther]

Originally Posted by addman

LOL! That's comedy gold right there, never gonna happen. LOL!

[Hooves]

They were too fast, and they still got gobbled up by 109's. Now they are all even slower. You dont need a crystal ball to figure out that 1c just completely screwed the red pilots of this game. Hey we could use the writ flyer against those 109's it be about as effective.


Trust me on the bullet resistance. I have gigs of videos with the 109 on fire still turning with the reds and then zooming away all the way home. You can't argue with video.

I'm sorry but this update is a total joke.

[recoilfx]

Originally Posted by Hooves

They were too fast, and they still got gobbled up by 109's. Now they are all even slower. You dont need a crystal ball to figure out that 1c just completely screwed the red pilots of this game. Hey we could use the writ flyer against those 109's it be about as effective.


Trust me on the bullet resistance. I have gigs of videos with the 109 on fire still turning with the reds and then zooming away all the way home. You can't argue with video.

I'm sorry but this update is a total joke.

Hooves, I'll address that point of 109s being on fire - there are 2 fuel tanks for the 109 in the game. One 'explosion' doesn't mean the 109 will run out as long as the other fuel tank isn't punctured. IMO, the occurrences of fuel tank 'explosions' happen too often compare to the RAF planes, but I don't know if this is a historical trait.

[furbs]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

Hooves, I'll address that point of 109s being on fire - there are 2 fuel tanks for the 109 in the game. One 'explosion' doesn't mean the 109 will run out as long as the other fuel tank isn't punctured. IMO, the occurrences of fuel tank 'explosions' happen too often compare to the RAF planes, but I don't know if this is a historical trait.

I would think ANY sort of fuel tank explosion would put the 109 down, as now they not only carry on flying, they carry on fighting with no negative impact on flight performance.

[recoilfx]

Originally Posted by furbs

I would think ANY sort of fuel tank explosion would put the 109 down, as now they not only carry on flying, they carry on fighting with no negative impact on flight performance.

Most of time, when there is a fuel tank explosion the 109 is severely damaged. I'm just explaining why sometimes 109 can continue to fly even though the explosion should've drained all fuel.

We all have had those moments where one plane is Swiss cheesed but it continues to whiz by.

I agree that the 109s are just hardier planes (as long as the engine isn't over-reved). Brit planes are more finicky and more prone to temperature issues. I don't know if this is historical or not, but it seems that the Merlins are due for some changes with the new patch.

[BigC208]

Originally Posted by Hooves

They were too fast, and they still got gobbled up by 109's. Now they are all even slower. You dont need a crystal ball to figure out that 1c just completely screwed the red pilots of this game. Hey we could use the writ flyer against those 109's it be about as effective.


Trust me on the bullet resistance. I have gigs of videos with the 109 on fire still turning with the reds and then zooming away all the way home. You can't argue with video.

I'm sorry but this update is a total joke.

I read a lot of pilot accounts from the Blitzkrieg (both sides) in the lowlands to the Battle of Brittain. I always got the impression that when flown by a competent pilot and using it strenghts, the 109E was a feared and deadly adversary. Fast, small profile and those 2x20mm made quick work out of anything unfortunate enough to fly infront of them. RAF pilots in general were aware that they were outclassed at the higher altitudes when bounced by 109's. Even acknowlegded their fire power inferiority in interviews after the war. In 1940 the 109E was the best fighter in the West, by a country mile. If Goering had used the 109E for what it was designed, unrestrained free hunt with a range extending droptank, the RAF would've been toast by late September.

Flying Spits an Hurries I've blown many 109's out of the sky online. Make sure you get close and in convergence. Bombers take more work but are doable and it feels realistic from what I've read on the subject over the years. Even in a Spit mkI online I do pretty good against 109 drivers that don't use their strenghts. Had a 45 minute dogfight over Le Havre that went from 15k to down on the deck and back up to 15k. He never got a clean shot and I never was able to get on his six. One on one close in I did pretty good. Had it been historical (against experienced 109 driver) I would've been dead in 2 minutes. Experienced 109 driver would've done bnz tacktics with his wingman and extend over and over again. I was in a corner, unable to run away. In the end I noticed I got low on gas and tried to extend with a Split S and a wild course altering, turning dive. Hoping he would lose sight. No such luck, He nailed me, straight and level on the deck. Probably my most enjoyable online 1 vs 1 dogfight ever.

Point I'm trying to make is this. In their historical context and flown with tactics of the time the 109 is supposed to be superior. In online mode, out of historical context, the planes are much closer. After a bit of a turnfight, energy advantage depleted, the 109 becomes a more equal adversary. From that point on individual flying skills and luck will decide the outcome.

Great update. Good to see that more work is spread out over all cores. I hope that's a trend they continue. Bit of a bummer to have a game that only uses 25% of the avalable recources. Now it actually may make sense to get an 8 core machine. Curious to see how the Intel and AMD 8 core processors deal with Il2CoD after the patch. The other big questionmark for me is how they fixed sound. Shooting the guns in the RAF planes is hardly noticible. even the 20mm's in the 109 are muffled. Hope that's fixed.

[Hooves]

I'm sorry but you have it absolutely backwards. In historical context the RAF actually had an advantage as the LW were ordered to stay with the bombers negating their boom and zoom advantage. In a video game with unrestricted
ROE the 109's make mints meat of the RAF birds as they can do whatever they want to. In an online game arena with no orders. Realism falls on it's face, with one side constantly getting beat for the sake of historical flight model. So tell ya what I'll continue to try to get a height advantage if you 109 drivers never stray from your bombers. After all we are being "realistic" aren't we?

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Hooves

I'm sorry but you have it absolutely backwards. In historical context the RAF actually had an advantage as the LW were ordered to stay with the bombers...

Not for the entire battle, that order was mid to late BoB - I cant remember when or find the date, Im assuming late August.

However from the most unreliable of sources, heres this from wiki:

"By September, standard tactics for raids had become an amalgam of techniques. A Freie Jagd would precede the main attack formations. The bombers would fly in at altitudes between 16,000 feet (4,900 m) and 20,000 feet (6,100 m), closely escorted by fighters. Escorts were divided into two parts (usually Gruppen), some operating in close contact with the bombers, and others a few hundred yards away and a little above."


O how I loathe wikipedia.


It is, through non rose tinted glasses, widely acknowlegded that the most superior fighter, by a margin, in 1940 was the 109. Later in the war the arms race sees the spit and 109 leap frogging each other however many many other factors must be taken into consideration. Its simply NOT who had the best plane won. As you mentioned - orders for one hampered the 109 driver late in BoB.

I have a huge respect for Hurricane pilots, they were the back bone of the BoB and many other theatres where the Spitfire was largely abscent for some time. Sadly the 109 WAS better than the Hurri and the pilots where often better also. However its not just the kite - Its largley the pilot. That brings us to another factor, we as virtual pilots NEVER DIE. We learn from our mistakes, we all have more than 5 Victories (an ace) and more than 10 (Experte )... We live to fly another day! We have the knowledge of the best tactics that those who did this for real did not. So its not all down to the plane, which in this Sim - should be as historic as possible and the rest is up to us.