how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?



Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

When did I ever use the word "unacceptable"?

Stop being so aggressively antagonistic about this discussion.

If you're not a high flying 109 diving onto your targets, I will be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

I'm happy to fly at 15k+. The ACTION I'm talking about is MISSION CRITICAL action. How many bombers attacking Ramsgate Beaufighters have you seen coming in at 10k+? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but I have seen ZERO. The only bombers I ever see going for targets are chopping the water with their props.

If I'm a Spit or a Hurricane that low to the deck, I am a sitting duck for you or any 109 pilot. Even a bad one.

If you want to treat ATAG's server as a dogfight server, go ahead.

I'm thankful for ATAG. It's helped create an online presence for the game if not a cohesive community. But the way things usually play out in the missions these days, it's not much fun most of the time. There are other servers running other missions that I like more, but no one plays there. As everyone has said, AI fighters are BAD to dogfight with. Not much fun there either.

So I occasionally vent like in the above posts and I get back to it. Maybe one time someone will think "Hmm, maybe if we try this it'll make it better for everyone." I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I'm out to improve everyone's fun. And, yes, that includes people who like to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes. Sue me.

[Ernst]

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by Ernst

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

This is the sort of thing I want too And yes, I'm trying desperately to get this going. Why do you think I started 401?

So yes, this kind of organization is what we need. I will keep trying.

Like I said many times. These are mostly just vent posts. Back to business as normal.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by Ernst

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

+1. Superior height + a wingman cure 99% of the current plane performance issues - apart from the G.50, which is seriously flawed in speed, climbrate and ceiling).

Cheers!

[addman]

Originally Posted by Insuber

+1. Superior height + a wingman cure 99% of the current plane performance issues - apart from the G.50, which is seriously flawed in speed, climbrate and ceiling).

Cheers!

I agree, the G.50 is the only obviously porked plane at the moment. The ceiling of that things is just ridiculous. Why they porked a plane that was already porked by default is beyond me.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by addman

I agree, the G.50 is the only obviously porked plane at the moment. The ceiling of that things is just ridiculous. Why they porked a plane that was already porked by default is beyond me.

LOL! Yeah the Fiat G.50 Freccia was the first monoplane of the Regia Aeronautica, low wing, all metal. Not a complete underdog, but very handicapped against Spits and even Hurries in terms of armament, R/T equipment and engine. It took the skills and motivation of the Finnish pilots to achieve 177 victories for the loss of 41 Freccias against the VVS.
And it took the Mc.202 to partially recover the technical disadvantage, while the excellent G.55 Centauro and Mc.205 Veltro arrived too late and in too low quantities.
But again, the G.50 cries for an FM update!

[pupaxx]

Hi guys, my experience in Clod is limited in flying (since the release) mostly Spit Ia; this cause I wanted to be extremely confident in this mount (at least in one mount) and trained at CEM usage and the general complexity of Clod. I'm educated to combat tacticts since I'm flight simmer since 20 years, this not makes me an ace, I'm well prone to disregard the tactics and I do! My background not prevent me to fall victim of my mistakes (it appens often ) but at least I'm able to analyze were my insuccess comes from! I say this to reset discussion about the net-pilots skill. I'm not interested if a success of mine is over a green pilot or inattentive ace and vice versa; I just want to report my experience on the machine.
I find the Spit Ia well underpowered below 4500ft in terms of acceleration, I usually set the prop pitch in 75-65% range to maintain the combat survivability speed of 200-210Mph. For experience I dont excede a continuative Rpm=2650 and boost pressure=5Lbs, this assure me the engine life for the entire mission. The best climb rate is similar to the official supermarine references, at 160Mph I maintain 1800-2000ft/min. At medium altitudes (10000-14000ft) I reach the combat cruise speed of 230-240 Mph with above parameters and plane neutrally trimmed (is essential). What appens every time in multiplayer is as follow: let's say 14000ft leveled, 220 Mph, 109 at my 10' 2-3miles 1000ft higher, I close on his 8' unseen. When I attempt a 40° turn in his direction and a 5-10° climb my speed drops to 180-190. If I force a bit these maneuvers speed drops to 130-110. When the 109 is aware of me evades transitioning from a leveled flight at combat/normal cruise speed and outclimbs me easily by 1000ft or more. It turns to be an excelent energy conserver even at high altitude (the yo-yos well described before). At lower altitudes if catched by a 109, if I menage to keep a certain separation, I'm able to evade forcing him in a gentle and large climb-turn; in the turn his inner squared wing stalls before than elliptical mine.
The roll rate diffrences beetwin 109 and spit is needless to talk about. In Split-s, if u have the right separation and u are the chaser, u can compensate his higher roll rate and u can predict his egress. In steep dive the Spit gains speed better then 109 and u can close on it. Obviously the higer roll rate is better taken in advantage by AI pilot. In this regard I would something about AI-roll rate. Last night on ATAG I closed on a G50, what a kind of arabesque it was able to draw in the sky! 3 minutes of rolls, back rolls, steep climbs, steep turns at a point I thought he was an AI, at the end of his flight (on the ground ) the server stated he was human...Great pilot..and great plane! I dont want to refuse any consideration made on G50 FM until today, this is just an episode I want to share with u. BTW, The spit roll rate, I dont know if and how much compared to the real one, seems very poor. Last consideration is about the combat and damage survivability of Bf109. I dont like to rage on what I consider an heavily damaged plane, but to many times I'm downed by 109s with slashed radiators. I like the situation in which I close to the enemy, I spray a generous amount of ammos on him and I enjoy the scene of him sinking in the Channel loosing all his glycole. But to many times he is able to subvert the situation regaining 2000ft of alt and aggressively continuing the fight. When the spit is hit there is no expectation on the engine.
A word would be worth to be spent on ammo belt. A lot of blue players have plenty of grenades thath makes the task easyer, for me I'm more satisfied in adopting an hystorical mix or AP incediaries and Balls as documented by some resources. One of this states '...four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)...' This is what i go for...
Cheers

[Robo.]

Hi pupaxx, I find your post very interesting and your observations are certainly correct. I spent considerable amount of time in all 3 main fighetr planes in the sim and I have to agree.

Here interesting view of blue pilot:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...and-Hurriecans....

Originally Posted by pupaxx

I just want to report my experience on the machine.
I find the Spit Ia well underpowered below 4500ft in terms of acceleration, I usually set the prop pitch in 75-65% range to maintain the combat survivability speed of 200-210Mph. For experience I dont excede a continuative Rpm=2650 and boost pressure=5Lbs, this assure me the engine life for the entire mission. The best climb rate is similar to the official supermarine references, at 160Mph I maintain 1800-2000ft/min. At medium altitudes (10000-14000ft) I reach the combat cruise speed of 230-240 Mph with above parameters and plane neutrally trimmed (is essential).

This is very true, although some say the Brit planes are easier to pick up, I find it's CEM more challenging and less forgiving in a way. You can easily damage your engine when you're not careful with your revs and unlike 109, you have to watch your temperatures at all times. In a 109, you have to be careful not to overrev it on the other hand. I adjust my RPM depending on if I am after top speed or acceleration. You can certainly go full power (6.25lbs @ 3000RPM) at a times which helps a bit but you got to be careful not to fry your Rolls Royce, this very much depends on the altitude.

Originally Posted by pupaxx

In steep dive the Spit gains speed better then 109 and u can close on it.

This is the only bit I disagree with. The 109 can certainly dive better (assuming the pilot knows what he's doing with the prop pitch lever) and will extend in a dive unless you cut his trajectory. Moreover he can disappear somewhere you can't follow (neg G) and it can be very dangerous as when he comes up again he will outclimb you like nothing. I don't recommend following any 109 into dive - in fact good Emil jockeys know this very well and they will lure you down to follow them. Don't do that. Never! Climb instead, pick him up when he goes in the climb again and make sure you stay on top of him. This bit is all about timing your manoeveurs right. Make sure you don't lose him for a second as he can and will bite you back.

Originally Posted by pupaxx

I'm more satisfied in adopting an hystorical mix or AP incediaries and Balls as documented by some resources. One of this states '...four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)...' This is what i go for...
Cheers

Me too! I find the sim is well modelled and researched regarding the munition types and belting, the default settings (which I am using 95% of the time) is actually spot on, Mk.I has got early type of belting and Mk.II later type, that is very cool they got this right!

[Insuber]

Excellent report pupaxx. Well done.

[addman]

Originally Posted by Insuber

LOL! Yeah the Fiat G.50 Freccia was the first monoplane of the Regia Aeronautica, low wing, all metal. Not a complete underdog, but very handicapped against Spits and even Hurries in terms of armament, R/T equipment and engine. It took the skills and motivation of the Finnish pilots to achieve 177 victories for the loss of 41 Freccias against the VVS.
And it took the Mc.202 to partially recover the technical disadvantage, while the excellent G.55 Centauro and Mc.205 Veltro arrived too late and in too low quantities.
But again, the G.50 cries for an FM update!

Yeah, the Finns showed a lot of skill and motivation in that plane. Good to know that the developers are aware of the FM problems with the G.50 and are looking in to it at least.

ATAG_Doc: Yeah! lol! first time I got shot at in the G.50 by a friendly I thought it was a one time kind of mistake but that thing just loves receiving lead from both sides.