1982 Falklands (Malvinas) War: a view from across the pond

[rasante_pucará]

Originally Posted by Osprey

In actual fact Mount Tumbledown, overlooking Stanley, was a fortress packed with several hundred Marines, some of Argentina's best troops, who were dug in.

They were attacked by 300 Scotsmen, so it's no surprise that they eventually ran for their lives. When the jocks got the upper hand the Argies ordered their own Arty to fire on their position.

Big mistake here. The 5º Infantry Battalion was conformed by 70% conscrip soldiers. They wasn´t a elite unit (The diferences between others units, it´s that this was prepared for this type of combat)

The Scot Guard Battalion (300 man? Here the Battalion are of 500 man aprox) fight against a part of NACAR company of 5º I. Battalion.
They fight againts two sections of 5º Marines, and 1 section of the RI4 (Army, those tooke parte in goose green battle and retreat to tumbledown). The scotish fight against 100-150 mans.

[Siko]

Originally Posted by rasante_pucará

Big mistake here. The 5º Infantry Battalion was conformed by 70% conscrip soldiers. They wasn´t a elite unit (The diferences between others units, it´s that this was prepared for this type of combat)

The Scot Guard Battalion (300 man? Here the Battalion are of 500 man aprox) fight against a part of NACAR company of 5º I. Battalion.
They fight againts two sections of 5º Marines, and 1 section of the RI4 (Army, those tooke parte in goose green battle and retreat to tumbledown). The scotish fight against 100-150 mans.

Wikipedia quotes 900 Scots versus 500 Marines.

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by Osprey

They were attacked by 300 Scotsmen, so it's no surprise that they eventually ran for their lives. When the jocks got the upper hand the Argies ordered their own Arty to fire on their position.

I wouldn't call that battle including fierce Hand to Hand combat with fixed bayonets a "ran for their lives" also i believe you are underestimating the strenght of 2 Btl SG i'm pretty sure that there were more than 300 men involved in the attack.
IIRC there were two bayonet charges performed by the Scots Guards. When the perimeter was secured by 2 SG the Argies launched a first counter attack which was fought off by the Scots.
The Argies had to withdraw when outflanked by the SG and even then the Argie Marines planned another counter attack, the final withdrawal was ordered by Argies staff back in Stanley.
Btw when the Argie arty started up firing the Mountain top the positions were already taken by the SG so calling it firing at own positions isn't quite correct because at that point the Argie Marines were in retreat and have already left the Mountain top and also is to mention that during the whole battle there was very accurate Mortar fire on the advancing SG by a Argentine Mortar Platoon at Mount William.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Baco

The principle of self determination is exclusive for indigenous population, NOT, tranplanted colonial population. No Islander grategrandfather was born on the islands, period. Every one of them comes from a british subjec familly. So the principle of self determination of the people does not aplly to them. It was Argentinian territory with a flag and a governor.. we do not claim to inherit it from spain, we claim it was populated and ruled by Argentina when the british took it by force. Putting it plainlly: If I steal yopur car, does it make it mine if my kid rides on it for long enough time? Or is it still your car?

This is were things become complicated. A home is not a car. It is one thing to steal a tool and then let the children use it, it is another one to be born and having lived a whole life in one place and then being denied that being their home.
Despite some, admittingly, very strong argumentation towards giving back the Falkslands to Argentina, robbing people of their identity and land is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Former injustice in this regard, and sorry UK, that it was, still can't be made good with more injustice. Gibraltar, btw, is a very similiar case.

However, I think the concept of the Falklands becoming their own entity makes most sense, but this would require such a much more mature Argentina so that these islands could feel safe from occupation.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

This is were things become complicated. A home is not a car. It is one thing to steal a tool and then let the children use it, it is another one to be born and having lived a whole life in one place and then being denied that being their home.
Despite some, admittingly, very strong argumentation towards giving back the Falkslands to Argentina, robbing people of their identity and land is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Former injustice in this regard, and sorry UK, that it was, still can't be made good with more injustice. Gibraltar, btw, is a very similiar case.

there are some interesting double standards going on here: a few months ago there was a huge sensation here in the UK because of the eviction of quite a number of "Irish travellers" (something similar to the Gypsies in the continental Europe) who after 10+ years of squatting in an area called Dale Farm were kicked out by the authorities, regardless of the fact that many settled (and were born) there, in a show of force that was quite surprising, and in the meantime you'll have people defending the forced occupation of an island thousands of miles away.. and yes, Gibraltar is probably even more of a peculiar case.

However, I think the concept of the Falklands becoming their own entity makes most sense, but this would require such a much more mature Argentina so that these islands could feel safe from occupation.

I agree, but as you know there is too much interest in their resources now for it to actually happen.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

there are some interesting double standards going on here: a few months ago there was a huge sensation here in the UK because of the eviction of quite a number of "Irish travellers" (something similar to the Gypsies in the continental Europe) who after 10+ years of squatting in an area called Dale Farm were kicked out by the authorities, regardless of the fact that many settled (and were born) there, in a show of force that was quite surprising, and in the meantime you'll have people defending the forced occupation of an island thousands of miles away.. and yes, Gibraltar is probably even more of a peculiar case.

Yeah, that case was in the news here. I agree to those double standarts. However, as I said before, you can't justify injustice with injustice.

I agree, but as you know there is too much interest in their resources now for it to actually happen.

Possible

[Gribbers]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

there are some interesting double standards going on here: a few months ago there was a huge sensation here in the UK because of the eviction of quite a number of "Irish travellers" (something similar to the Gypsies in the continental Europe) who after 10+ years of squatting in an area called Dale Farm were kicked out by the authorities, regardless of the fact that many settled (and were born) there, in a show of force that was quite surprising, and in the meantime you'll have people defending the forced occupation of an island thousands of miles away.. and yes, Gibraltar is probably even more of a peculiar case.


I agree, but as you know there is too much interest in their resources now for it to actually happen.

Dale farm occupants caused havoc, behaved like children to the media and defied the authorities, not being ignorant but they were treated in the UK as they would be in many countries all over the world...we only have to thank human progression that they weren't treated the same way they would have been in 1930/1940's Europe.

Many of them weren't paying council taxes, when the villagers and townies in surrounding areas were. There is an injustice that works both ways: I pay tax, and I've never had the misfortune to call the police, fire brigade or ambulance, or use they're services, and I live in what's considered to be a violent/dodgy part of London, I don't complain, like death, council taxes are inevitable, if you think you are exempt because you keep moving on, then keep moving on...these people were using all services and causing all three to be called out to their site before the disputes, and giving minimal amounts back (some of the occupants were blatantly contributing to society).

Completely off topic I know but not happy about linking this to the 1980's conflict. Irrelevant.

The fact is, the land didn't belong to them and they weren't paying tribute to the land...that's a global and historical principle.

[Kupsised]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

This is were things become complicated. A home is not a car. It is one thing to steal a tool and then let the children use it, it is another one to be born and having lived a whole life in one place and then being denied that being their home.
Despite some, admittingly, very strong argumentation towards giving back the Falkslands to Argentina, robbing people of their identity and land is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Former injustice in this regard, and sorry UK, that it was, still can't be made good with more injustice. Gibraltar, btw, is a very similiar case.

However, I think the concept of the Falklands becoming their own entity makes most sense, but this would require such a much more mature Argentina so that these islands could feel safe from occupation.

The problem with that, again, though is that they don't want to become their own entity. If they did, I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if the first thing their newly independent government did was to hold a vote on whether they should become a protectorate of the UK again, which would without a doubt pass, and then we're back to square one.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Kupsised

The problem with that, again, though is that they don't want to become their own entity. If they did, I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if the first thing their newly independent government did was to hold a vote on whether they should become a protectorate of the UK again, which would without a doubt pass, and then we're back to square one.

Depends on the reasons why they do not want to become independent. If it is because of fear of argentinan invasion and the percieved need for protection, then we have a classic circle. Some concessions have to be made, eventually. Giving them self determination by actually forcing them to take self determination may be the lesser of evils here.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

This is were things become complicated. A home is not a car. It is one thing to steal a tool and then let the children use it, it is another one to be born and having lived a whole life in one place and then being denied that being their home.
Despite some, admittingly, very strong argumentation towards giving back the Falkslands to Argentina, robbing people of their identity and land is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Former injustice in this regard, and sorry UK, that it was, still can't be made good with more injustice. Gibraltar, btw, is a very similiar case.

Firstly, the Falklands weren't populated. There was a Spanish outpost there for 2 years before the island changed hands.

Secondly, Gibraltar was given to the UK hundreds of years ago.

Thirdly, since you bring up 'the Rock' and how it is Spanish then why haven't you also mentioned Ceuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta) and Melilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla) ?

Where do you stand on the Basques and Catalans then? France and Spain had better hand them over fast.

The point is, it's not all black and white.