The MOD mentality....

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here..

So that is a good reason because someone wanted something? A lot of people wanted Brittany Spears and Hitler but that doesn't mean they were any good or were better off getting it.

I guess I had a lot more faith and foresight in IL2 and it's creators than most people. There were right around two dozen official patches for IL2 released in ten years with tons of new aircraft and features, that was enough for me.
As soon as I heard the sim was hacked I knew it was trouble as far as splintering the community and compromising the reputation of IL2.

Before the sim was hacked a lot of individuals helped model aircraft and worked on other features of the sim through official channels working with Oleg and crew. If you want to call them hackers or modders do it, but no matter what they were Good Guys in my book.

But that was not enough for someone though. They either did not have the patience to work with the IL2 crew or they thought they could do a better job themselves. The guys who did not think about the community or working through official channels, and did not think about compromising the reputation of IL2 or splintering the community before they went on their merry ways, in my book those are the Bad Guys, and it is a pretty simple distinction between the two.

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

[mmaruda]

Jumoschwanz, I cannot understand why you argue so much about the mods thing. Get over it, everyone else seems to have. So the sim was hacked, big deal, do you realize how many AAA games get hacked 2 days after release?

If it's cheaters you're worried about, I guess we have a lot less than Call of Duty. And as far as mods go, many people like then, they prolong the life of a game that by normal standards would be dead now and many thing from the mods got into official patches.

Splitting the community? It would be great if someone could make the mod teams and official developers reach an agreement, but at least we have choice. So if you don't like mods, don't play them. As for FM debates, with all respect for Oleg, he is partially responsible for this. I vaguely remember these days, but when the original IL-2 came out noone was complaining. There are still guys out there who lost interest after FB and PF came out, because a lot of things were off (try going back to 1.2, you may find that some FMs defy the laws of physics in some manouvers, sad but true). Ever since then tinkering and discussions started and haven't ended till today. It's always either the Corsair, or the Mustang, or 190. My only problem are the uber Russian Lavochkins, that should be dead meat against a D9, but somehow it's the other way around - why hasn't this been fixed?

You may not like the fact that the glory days of IL-2 are gone, but it happens to all old games. Blaming modders is just wrong. Just play the game and enjoy yourself or move to something else - there's CloD, RoF, DCS and a lot more coming.

[T}{OR]

Blaming mods is as much as bad idea as forcing stock game on everyone. Though 4.11 does offer much more than any moded version for me currently.

What would prolong the games life is a tool which would give servers the more or less complete control with what content one can and can not join a MP game.

[HundertneunGustav]

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....


Jumo - i think the above explains a lot about you.
No, i am not laughing or making fun of you - not at all.
You have patience, thats a good thing.
You have respect for a Game creator. thats a good thing as well.

You know these script kids, these true hackers? The geeks, and groups of geeks, knowledgeable guys that can knock down websites and steal tons of data?

Today, they are on the "bad" side, because they bend and break the rules- tomorrow they land a Job at norton antivirus, because of the stuff they are able to do.

Today, Asheshouse is doing CV5 for Il-2.
Tomorrow he will work on a Ship Simulator you can buy.

Today, some "evil modder" is hard at work learning Java to create his own mod.
Tomorrow, ha goes to a Job interview and kan put that self-aquired knowledge forth to convince the man in front to take him aboard his team.

Today, people are not patient enough to sail across the ocean. so they build the F^king concorde.

Today, people are not willing to ONLY have software that you must pay for. Because of X reasons.
So they bend the rules and write their own stuff.

Such people are often not endlessly patient, nor are they endlessly respectful.
Such people have (discovered?) that they too, are able to "do".

and people that discover their abilities, push their own envelope, that's a good thing in my book.

and the rules of the world are re-written, once again!

back to Il-2, allow me one honest question:

Is the cracking of the game code 100% bad? Has TD not had some sort of inspiration form all the unofficial stuff? Does this "underground" development never ever spawn anything good in official updates?

Let me speculate, no numbers, just concept.

If the Modders would not exist, a lot of them would have wandered off to other horizons already, playing other games.

The forum would be more empty. There would be less ideas generated. Less ideas realized.

There would be less reason for a group such as TD to exist. (less community)

Il-2 would develop slower.

If it would still develop at all.

I take back your original words:

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

The consequence would be (i am a bit extreme here, take it with a grain of salt)
- you would play a game that has not seen 4.10 (less community, less TD, less motivation, less everything)
-you would play that game with the same old folks on your same old HL servers
-you would have been bored by now.

You wouldn't play this game at all any more.

Hm?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

+1

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Well said. +2

[nearmiss]

Mods malady

The more mods the sicker it gets, especially because when there is no one authority.

The servers are the authority now, for controlling online gaming.

The mod packagers are doing their best, to put out decent work.

Then you are going to have those mod devs that will bend all conventions for a 600MPH corsair.

The MSFT CFS2 and 3 community was plagued with the same disease, but there was not history of a online gaming worth much. So, it's harder to make silk purse from pigs ears.

The choices become overwhelming, which was always the value of IL2. Oleg restricted the overwhelming influences of MODS for a very long time.

Anyway, have fun with what you have and don't go too far out on a limb... it may break with you.

[HundertneunGustav]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The MSFT CFS2 and 3 community was plagued with the same disease, but there was not history of a online gaming worth much. So, it's harder to make silk purse from pigs ears.

Mods malady?
i would like to strongly disagree.
VERY strong disagree indeed!

I have seen CFS3, so let me get the ball rolling with these arguments:

-stock flightmodels not for real.
a spit that can do 15...20 loopings in a row, starting at treetop level and ending at 1000 feet...
NO.

-stock FMs/DMs incomplete
No overheating... one Bullet coming close to the engine cowling = dead engine within 10 minutes.

-AI not well developped
Stock AI started shooting as soon as they were in Range - if a weapon had an effective Range of 1000 meters, that would be the exactly the range at which you could expect a AI to start shooting at you. (icons)

-Stock Equipment incomplete.
G6, G10; A5 and A8 for german Prop fighters...
B and D Mustang B and D thud for the Yanks.
Spit9C and 9E (spit9E =.50 cals outside the Hispano, on the inner .303 position)

-Game designed in a Way that everyone can see and edit the files, Following the CFS2, Flight simulator Philosophy.

-Microsoft Simulators have always been designed to entice the community to produce stuff on their own.
Hence their releases of SDKs.

CFS2, and 3 had no mod malady.
They worked exactly as designed by their creators.

Mods filled the gaping holes of what was an arcade shooter with
-corrected content, the community went to great lengths to put the credo "as real as it gets" into action
-new content

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

Today, Asheshouse is doing CV5 for Il-2.
Tomorrow he will work on a Ship Simulator you can buy.

Hey! Is that a job offer?

[HundertneunGustav]

shhhh... its a secret...