Friday Update, February 10, 2012

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Keep Spitfire I with 87 Octane and two pitch prop - AGREE

Update Spitfire Ia to 100 Octane fuel and keep Rotol prop (most used type in BoB) - YEP 100 OCTAN for Spit IA but with DeHaviland Constant Speed Propeller Unit

Unless we get the early (pre Battle of France / pre Dunkirque) versions of Hurricanes or Spitfires with Weybridge propellers etc, there is no point having them modelled with 87 octane fuel in game. DH propeller has nothing to do with the fuel.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Spitfire II with 87 Octane and Rotol prop (could have 100 octane later, not so many used in BoB) - DONT AGREE - NEED 100 OCTAN FUEL SPIT II which used +12 lbs Emergency Power - everthying is in SPit MK II manual

Exactly, definitely 100 octanes for Merlin XII.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Also there could be 2 types of Hurricane:

- MK1 early with 2 stage DH prop pitch - 87 Octan fuel
- MKI late with Rotol prop - 100 Octan fuel

I understand you suggest it this way due to playability, but it is rather unhistorical. Again, DH airscrews or Rotol - nothing toi do with the fuel used.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

ALso 109 E need performance revision beacuse with 1.42/1.45 Ata there are too slow - 109 E should reach about 490-500 km/h at deck - now is only 460 km/h.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

All these planes have too low maxiumum service celling

Good point, I believe it's a mixture issue. Same with Blehneim.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

So for accurate and historical both online and offline gameplay we need deeply FM&Performacne revision.

Yes indeed, but not exactly the way you propose. Unless you'd like to represent very early mark I RAF fighters, 100 octane fuel should be used in game.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

I know what im talking about beacuse im in the topic for long time and made some FM revsion for IL2 mods planes expecially BOB fighters like Spitfire, 109 and Hurricane and 110 C-4.

So i think if in incoming patch there will be not solid and professional FM revision for these planes many people will be really dissapointment expecially when Luthier promise that there will be FM and performacne revsion in coming patch some time ago.

[Kwiatek]

Robo sure that Prop Unit have nothing to do with fuel octan. Even during Battle of France some Birtish Squadrons based in France used 100 Octan fuel in their Hurricanes.

I think we got a few variants of the same planes in Clod so why not to model them with different fuel octan performacne - 87 and 100 Octan. So early planes with 87 Octan fuel performacne like SPit MK1 with DH 2-stage prop and Hurricane with 2-stage prop and 100 Octan for Spit MK1 with constan speed prop the same like Huriccane with Rotol.

[klem]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Not only Spitfire IA need FM revsion. I think need it many planes in CLod.

During BoB both Spitfire MK1 and Hurrciane MK1 used 100 Octan fuel and +12 lbs boost emergency power. We need it both like it was historicaly.

Also 109 E need FM revision - atually there were too slow.

All planes need changes in service celling which now in CLOD is really off.

In sum most planes from CLOD need FM and performacne revsion.

Here in these topic there are RL data and comparision with CLOD:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=20110


So:

Keep Spitfire I with 87 Octane and two pitch prop - AGREE

Update Spitfire Ia to 100 Octane fuel and keep Rotol prop (most used type in BoB) - YEP 100 OCTAN for Spit IA but with DeHaviland Constant Speed Propeller Unit

Spitfire II with 87 Octane and Rotol prop (could have 100 octane later, not so many used in BoB) - DONT AGREE - NEED 100 OCTAN FUEL SPIT II which used +12 lbs Emergency Power - everthying is in SPit MK II manual

Also there could be 2 types of Hurricane:

- MK1 early with 2 stage DH prop pitch - 87 Octan fuel
- MKI late with Rotol prop - 100 Octan fuel

ALso 109 E need performance revision beacuse with 1.42/1.45 Ata there are too slow - 109 E should reach about 490-500 km/h at deck - now is only 460 km/h.

All these planes have too low maxiumum service celling


So for accurate and historical both online and offline gameplay we need deeply FM&Performacne revision.

I know what im talking about beacuse im in the topic for long time and made some FM revsion for IL2 mods planes expecially BOB fighters like Spitfire, 109 and Hurricane and 110 C-4.

So i think if in incoming patch there will be not solid and professional FM revision for these planes many people will be really dissapointment expecially when Luthier promise that there will be FM and performacne revsion in coming patch some time ago.

Hi Kwiatek,

I can't disagree with any of that in principle but I was really making the suggestion for immediate work (next patch or one soon after) with other 100 octane options to follow in time. That would at least give us something to fly BoB with on a reasonable footing with the 109s and assumes that the FMs for the existing Spits/Hurris/109s are already being corrected anyway in the upcoming patch. It was meant as a practical short term solution. Lets face it, thet don't have time for much more at the moment whether we like it or not.

If the 100 octane problem is too big to be solved quickly for all aircraft I think we coud live without the SpitII 100 octane as a trade off. I believe the main variant flying in the BoB was the Spitfire MkIa, MerlinIII, 100 octane, CSP - but I'll take the flames if I'm wrong

Anyway BalckSix is putting this to Ilya so hopefully he will consider the various options.

[Varrattu]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Also 109 E need FM revision - atually there were too slow ... ...

... 109 E need performance revision beacuse with 1.42/1.45 Ata there are too slow - 109 E should reach about 490-500 km/h at deck ... ...

Hi Kwiatek,
please can you provide the source of that information?

Regards Varrattu

[StG2_Winni]

Originally Posted by Varrattu

Hi Kwiatek,
please can you provide the source of that information?

Regards Varrattu

I'm not a specialist in those topics but you can read it here for example...

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

They state the following:

"German data of the Me-109E shows top level speed ranging from 342 to 348 mph. Russian charts show top speed of the Me 109E-3 was 342 mph. French tests of a captured Me 109 returned maximum speeds ranging from 342 to 354 mph. (Il en résulte une incertitude sur les résultats: from estimated position error). 2a 2b 2c Swiss full power horizontal flight speeds of a Me 109 with DB 601 Aa averaged 348 mph at 16,404 ft. 2d US flight tests of an Me 109 E-3 operating at 1.3 ata obtained 290 mph at sea level and 339 mph at 17,500 feet. 2e Some German documents suggest that mature Me 109Es having DB 601As with improved superchargers may have achieved 354 mph at 16,404 ft. All figures without armoured windscreen, excepting Russian where condition is unknown. "

Does this help?

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Varrattu

Hi Kwiatek,
please can you provide the source of that information?

Regards Varrattu

The most interesting documents are here:

http://kurfurst.org/#Emil

It is need to read it carefully.

I found for sure that German tested serial 109 E with Db601A at 1.3 Ata (990 PS) reached at the deck 467 km/h. ( radiator 1/4 open)

So with emergency 1-minut power at 1.4 Ata (1100 PS) 109 E would be even faster - about 15-20 km/h faster ----> so about 485 km/h at the deck (1/4 radiator open)

According to German manual for 109 E with Db601Aa at 1.45 Ata (1175 PS) it reached at the deck 500 km/h ( probably radiator closed looking at other 109 test like French and British also looking at climb times).


Of course it would be very short time to keep that speed beacause 1.4(601A)/1.45Ata(601Aa) could be keep only for 1-minute. Also 1.3/1.35 Ata was allowed only for 5-minutes.

Other test - French and British cofirmed German manual claims that 109 E could reach 570 km/h at 5.0km but with closed radiators - position of radiators could change speed of these planes at about 20-30 km/h depend of altitude.

For comparision Spitfire MK1 at +6 1/2 lbs (1/2 hour limit) reached at deck 455 km/h (283 mph) but with emergency +12 lbs (5-minutes limit) it reached 505 km/h.

[Varrattu]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

According to German manual for 109 E with Db601Aa at 1.45 Ata (1175 PS) it reached at the deck 500 km/h ( probably radiator closed looking at other 109 test like French and British also looking at climb times).

The value 500 km/h is presumably taken from a Yugoslavian translation of one BF109. I cannot find any German Document with such data.

Regards Varrattu

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Varrattu

The value 500 km/h is presumably taken from a Yugoslavian translation of one BF109. I cannot find any German Document with such data.

Regards Varrattu

Here is link to some data from manual:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

Here is data for V15a - German prototype of 109 E with Db601

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...15a_blatt6.jpg

Here is for German test of 109 E-3 Db601A at 1.3 Ata (1/4 radiator open)

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...MP16feb39.html

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Here is link to some data from manual:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

Here is data for V15a - German prototype of 109 E with Db601

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...15a_blatt6.jpg

Here is for German test of 109 E-3 Db601A at 1.3 Ata (1/4 radiator open)

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...MP16feb39.html

With Kurfurst's track record I take anything he publishes with a large pinch of salt.

[csThor]

Are you taking the spitfireperformance.com site with a pinch of salt, too? Cause that webmaster is under similar suspicions (spit-polishing the Spitfire's halo by posting selected data).

Every coin has two sides.