Bomber boys - bbc one

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

So how exactly is the fact that the axis were denied supplies and reinforcements and overwhelmed by a superior force testament to Montgomery's total incompetence?

I don't think he was a total incompetent, he knew his stuff (which somehow makes him even worse), but El-Alamein was a bit unbalanced: it's like saying you're gonna play the world cup final against a formidable team who has no football boots and is one legged..

I never said 6 months.....where did I say 6 months? just like in many other conflicts nature sometimes nature throws in a curveball that changes proceedings to a degree, I was just under the impression a window of bad weather bought Rommel some time and in the end there was no need to make a decisive push....the rest of the war was practically on the back foot for the Axis by then.

Well that's how long they sat on their ar$e for. He lived on the glory of El-Alamein and didn't complete his job in North Africa.

War is hell ain't it........
don't worry Stern...even I am a bit upset that we celebrate an oxygen thief like Monty, I would much prefer we had a more charismatic person in his place of history.

I understand your sentiment.

Hitler wasn't a general....just a corporal with delusions of grandeur, shame you make little effort to mention some of these 'other' generals, your concentration on the British ones is telling.

well he was a general indeed unfortunately, and I can mention to you other bad generals: Rommel, Alexander, Gamelin, Graziani, Percival, Fredendall.. we also have the ones who won, but at insane costs in terms of lives (i.e. Stalin, Zhukov..).. if you want details on them let me know

Many oppinions are always shared by many others....doesn't make them right or wrong, Montgomery being overrated is one I can share with you but not completely incompetent.

as I said before, he wan't a complete incompetent, he was a stubborn man with an awful sense of timing and an ego the size of the British empire..

[bongodriver]

I don't think he was a total incompetent, he knew his stuff (which somehow makes him even worse), but El-Alamein was a bit unbalanced: it's like saying you're gonna play the world cup final against a formidable team who has no football boots and is one legged..

No not really...it's just like a regular football match and one side lost, you seem to be emphasising the entire North Africa campaingn on the second half, the first half was a mirror of your description with the allies being completely outclassed, just because Rommel wasn't completely taken out doesn't mean enough wasn't done.

I'm not sure your prejudice against amputees is very nice, Bader had no legs (lost before the war) and he became an Ace.

as I said before, he wan't a complete incompetent, he was a stubborn man with an awful sense of timing and an ego the size of the British empire..

Cool then.....same hymn sheet is being sung from.

[bongodriver]

with regard to the 'winners write history'.....well duh!

the point is if you take into account why the Allies ever got involved in the War and what was ultimately being fought for then without doubt the Allies were the 'good guys' irrespective of any individuals questionable ethics, we can separate the Allies into 2 groups, the Russians had their own part of the war that just happened to align with the US and Brits, this just defaulted them into being an ally, the West had no influence over how they chose to conduct their war, lend lease was not necessarily an endorsement of any conduct either.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No not really...it's just like a regular football match and one side lost, you seem to be emphasising the entire North Africa campaingn on the second half, the first half was a mirror of your description with the allies being completely outclassed, just because Rommel wasn't completely taken out doesn't mean enough wasn't done.

well I have a different understanding of the war in Northern Africa: the turning point was at the very beginning, when Vichy France surrendered, leaving a void and space for the Allied invasion to storm in. Other factors like limited or no supplies from Europe, the breaking of the Ultra code and inferior numbers in terms of troops and air support meant that it would only have been a matter of time, especially after the Germans started concentrating their efforts in Barbarossa.

I'm not sure your prejudice against amputees is very nice, Bader had no legs (lost before the war) and he became an Ace.

ah come on man, it was just an example.. my grandpa was a partisan and a war amputee, so I doubt I'm prejudiced about the topic..

Cool then.....same hymn sheet is being sung from.[/QUOTE]

yeah, let's just enjoy the moment

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

...
well he was a general indeed unfortunately, and I can mention to you other bad generals: Rommel, Alexander, Gamelin, .

... if you want details on them let me know
...

Sorry, can't help but ask. Why, in your opinion, was Rommel a bad general?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Hmm..... Also interested in Mr. Sternjaeger's opinion of Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/t...-meetinghouse/

Here's another one.

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=217

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Hmm..... Also interested in Mr. Sternjaeger's opinion of Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/t...-meetinghouse/

Here's another one.

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=217

A thing that we often forget nowadays is that the Americans had the same consideration of the Japanese that the Germans had of the Russians: Japanese code of conduct and fierceness didn't do themselves any favour, propaganda did the rest. Japanese were almost not considered human by most.

So whilst Germans might still have kept a sort of human side (all in all they had the same caucasian looks), Japanese were strongly mocked for their different looks. Only who fought against the Japanese learned the hard lesson that the Japanese were far from the clumsy, short sighted skinny wimps of the US propaganda.

Let's not forget that racism was still very strong in the '40s: white German POWs in the States were usually treated better than African American troops.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Let's not forget that racism was still very strong in the '40s:

Sorry, just re-read the thread. Must've missed the opportunity for that one previously. - Again.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Sorry, just re-read the thread. Must've missed the opportunity for that one previously. - Again.

what's so funny about it?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Sorry, can't help but ask. Why, in your opinion, was Rommel a bad general?

Rommell was an astute tactician, but not a good general: he didn't listen to more experienced colleagues (he deliberately and blatantly dismissed and ignored the suggestions of Italian generals during the North Africa campaign, who had a better understanding of logistics and artillery use), undermining his relationship with his Italian allies, who never thought much of him and didn't manage to coordinate their work efficiently in North Africa.

By the time he named Kesselrig as CinC of the Mediterranean based German Army it was too late, and never managed to efficiently coordinate the armed forces with the Allies.

So he lost that, he then screwed up big time in Northern France as you all know..

In addition to his stubbornness and arrogance, he deliberately didn't obey certain orders he received, and last but not least he tried to murder his leader.

So no, he wasn't a good general. An astute tactician as I said, a socialite, and a good man that understood that Nazism and Hitler were the real enemy, but not what you would normally define a good general.