4.11 overheat and engine damage test results

[shauncm]

Originally Posted by JtD

The P-51 most certainly isn't outclassed by anything prop driven. I'm pretty sure that I've been scoring 3+ kills per sortie average, frequently 5 or more with it over the last year or even longer, and very rarely been shot down. It's a great plane.

JtD>
i am happy that you disagree with me! it may be a personal question but what tactics do you use, how do you fly it? i would be nice to hear from someone that flies it regularly!

Pips>
in cliffs of dover i seem to remember the bf110 having seperate oil and coolant radiators. also i think that the tempest oil and coolent systems both run through the nose 'scoop'. if you are asking a general question about how to manage the oil temprature, then the answer would be to manage revs and power. if you are asking about a plane where the two systems are separate, i have no idea and someone else needs to answer!

[Luno13]

In the game they are tied together, but I think they could be controlled separately.

[fruitbat]

Strange, i'm yet to blow up a single engine up in 4.11, despite flying co-ops in 4.11 most nights since release.

What am i doing wrong?

[WhistlinggDeath]

Shaun, will comment on your other notes in a bit, (typing from a tablet on a boat in the harbor so a bit funny), but as to the P51, Tempy etc, ... just remember, your not downshifting or 'flying' anything. You are making responses to computer code that is written to represent someone's version of what they think the P51 flies like, and that code is discrete (in the mathematical sense of meaning phase transition endpoints). No ambiguity. When I look at the source code for the additions in 4.11 it is not that advanced as you are imagining. And as much as I like your development towards IL2 Master status, cant agree with you on the P51 being weak because it was not a 'home-defense' fighter. It was a Grade A, superlative killing machine, as long as correctly used in a boom and zoom fashion (not that many online can do that correctly). I worked a bit this morning on making some Ntrks of my P51 in action and the TA. I am in overheat all over the place, and within seconds of the actual fight starting. This just doesnt gel with what some of these WWII aviation history nuts are telling me.

More on your other comments later, when I get back to land.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

It was a Grade A, superlative killing machine, as long as correctly used in a boom and zoom fashion (not that many online can do that correctly).

Lets not start yet another "P51 won the war" versus " no it didn't that was just Hollywood" thread.

Somehow those debates always deteriorate and end up in a US versus rest of the world bun fight with no connection to historical WII facts and figures on either side.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Strange, i'm yet to blow up a single engine up in 4.11, despite flying co-ops in 4.11 most nights since release.

What am i doing wrong?

You're using historical flying techniques of course, you charlatan! Your kind is not welcomed here, and your common sense will not be tolerated!!!!

BURN THE WITCH!!!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[shauncm]

Originally Posted by BadAim

You're using historical flying techniques of course, you charlatan! Your kind is not welcomed here, and your common sense will not be tolerated!!!!

BURN THE WITCH!!!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

lol!!!


>icefire, whatever you take the time to write i will go through with a fine tooth comb. if im lucky i will find something that saves my (virtual) life one day

>whistlinggdeath, the same applies. maybe one day it will put me on your six!

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by shauncm

JtD>
i am happy that you disagree with me! it may be a personal question but what tactics do you use, how do you fly it? i would be nice to hear from someone that flies it regularly!

Pips>
in cliffs of dover i seem to remember the bf110 having seperate oil and coolant radiators. also i think that the tempest oil and coolent systems both run through the nose 'scoop'. if you are asking a general question about how to manage the oil temprature, then the answer would be to manage revs and power. if you are asking about a plane where the two systems are separate, i have no idea and someone else needs to answer!

I can't speak for JtD but we do sometimes fly together and I think our styles are similar. I fly the Mustang like I fly the Tempest but I should say that my style is a bit different for the Mustang.

1) Altitude is really important for the Mustang. Maybe more than most late war fighters. The Mustang has less power and typically greater weight (unless you really drop back the fuel load) than some of its opponents so you need to start with some sort of energy advantage. Altitude is easiest but speed is good too. Against some of the real climb monsters you want to avoid getting low and enabling them to climb up above you.

2) Fly "smoothly". This is harder to describe but it's something I learned to do playing Air Racing servers. Minimal control inputs except when desired is the key to this style of flight. I don't make sudden movements...everything is very calm and controlled whereas before I used to fly much more harshly. The Mustang benefits from this because of it's sudden stall (laminar flow wings and the weight of the aircraft tend to exacerbate this) and because it's aerodynamics matter more than anything else.

3) In combat I will often fly the lag pursuit style of maneuvering. I won't match an enemy aircraft move for move like I might in a Yak or early 109. Instead I use overhead yo-yo and lag pursuit to position myself for a shot.

4) When managing the engine I tend to use the radiator controls manually. Some aircraft I'm very content with using the automatic method but in the Mustang I'm very proactive instead. If I go into a zoom climb I close it for smallest drag profile. In level flight I may open it to halfway.

If I'm cruising or fighting at speed I'll drop the RPM (prop pitch) but in a climb and in some dive situations I'll ramp up the RPM. I did this before the 4.11 patch came out but I find that my technique has changed very little as I focus on keeping a cool engine for as long as possible... when it does overheat it's because I intentionally put the throttle through the WEP gate and that I really want that extra burst of speed.

5) Effective gunnery is really important in the Mustang. I tend to make most of my kills in a single pass. Two passes if necessary. My convergence with a Mustang is a bit closer in (if I remember) at 250 meters. I go for a high speed and angled shot rather than a dead 6 shot if I can. This is easier with human pilots as they tend to turn in evasive while the AI will sometimes fly straight with a greater degree of discipline than many human pilots.

My best sorties in a Mustang will usually net a couple of kills depending on the server and settings. My absolute best was on Warclouds more than a few years ago where I fly a P-51D-20 and scored 4 (plus one damaged) during a furball. I spent no more than a few seconds on each target and then broke away.

The Mustang is sometimes a frustrating fighter to fly. If you get used to flying other types that are more agile and more of a turn fighter that you can chuck around like the earlier 109 types or maybe the Spitfire then the Mustang can be difficult. You can't chuck it around the sky in the same way. I tend to use the rudder much less as you can really cause some bad stall situations with hard rudder use while rolling. With the FM correction to the P-51D stability in 4.10 it's gotten a bit easier but it's basically the same deal as it was before with just a little more forgiveness.

In my head it all comes down to this. The Mustang has 1500ish horsepower. Similar to a Spitfire IX. Yet the top speed of a Mustang is similar to a Spitfire XIV with 2000 hp. It doesn't have the climb rate of the later Spitfire so... what the Mustang can't achieve through engine horsepower, it achieves with some of the best aerodynamic design around. Laminar flow designed wings, lowest drag coefficient of any USAAF fighter in WWII (and certainly up there with any from any nation). So whenever I fly it, my focus is always on maintaining that aerodynamic flow and using the aerodynamics for zoom climbs and staying fast.

Sorry for the essay. I hope it helps a bit?

[JtD]

Originally Posted by shauncm

JtD>
i am happy that you disagree with me! it may be a personal question but what tactics do you use, how do you fly it? i would be nice to hear from someone that flies it regularly!

I fly on a server where you can expect to have at least semi-historical plane sets - contemporary planes, from the proper sides. So I don't have to take it up against Spitfires and La-7's, only against Bf 109's, Fw 190's or Ki-84's.

Generally, I only engage if I have the advantage. I disengage if I don't. The good thing about the P-51 is that it is fast, and allows you to disengage very easily in a shallow high speed dive.

Also, it is great at high altitude, so if someone wants to deny me the altitude advantage, he'll have to climb up into my playground. There I can defeat him even without an altitude advantage.

I usually fly the P-51 loaded with about 50% fuel at 90% pitch, 99% power, rads closed at higher speeds. I open the radiator for extended low speed climbs over friendly territory. I go all out when I need to run, no use in getting shot down with a brand new engine. Better to rtb with a wrecked one. My convergence is usually set to 150 .. 200.

I know the opposition very well, I fly all planes frequently. I for instance know which planes I can outdive, which I can outclimb, which altitudes I am faster at and so on. I also know that the 109 manoeuvrability sucks at high speed, and that there's no way it can follow me through high speed scissors. Listing details like that is a bit too much to do here. I can only recommend to look at data given in il-2 compare, memorise it and use it.

In most cases, I fly like IceFire already described - hit and run or B'n'Z or energy fighting, with gentle control input. I try to maintain a high speed and a good altitude. I don't blow my advantage in order to follow a bandit through a tight turn, in which I'd only black out anyway. I rather use repeated passes, and if the guy is just too good at dodging repeated passes, I'll just leave him where he is going to look for an easier target.

Most people that realise that you're not pushing things will get lazy with their defence. Also many folks have a single favourite evasive manoeuvre, which they will perform every time you show up on their six. So with every pass you do, they'll be an easier target.

And now the fun fact - the P-51 can dogfight fairly well. If you're low on fuel, it is absolutely possible to beat a 109 or a 190 in a dogfight, I've done so numerous times. You shouldn't take on a 109G-2, but G-6 and later usually works out OK, as do 190ies. You have to be aware that once you have slowed down to the 109 speed, it can regain speed and altitude quicker than you, so if you need to disengage, dive. If you instead of going into a zoom climb go into a lag pursuit mode as IceFire said, you can come down on his 6 fairly quickly again. Usually, this catches the bad guy off guard, but even if not, your speed is still superior and with combat flaps, you should have little trouble following him through a number of manoeuvres. Don't get too close, you may overshoot, and abort when you still have a chance.

Anyway, all of the above may sound as if the P-51 was a killing machine for the lone wolf, but it is not. Most of my kills I achieve when cooperating with team mates, may they want that or not. A bandit focussed on turning with someone else, easy meat. A bandit zooming up in a fight with someone else, easy meat again. A bandit recovering from an evasive manoeuvre flown to dodge someone else's attack, easy meat. A guy flying straight while chasing a team mate, easy meat. You get the picture - fast planes all are OK on their own, but _extremely_ good when flown even loosely in some sort of team work. The P-51 is no exception. And in that kind of combat, it leaves the performances of Spitfires and La-7's far behind. Dive speed, high speed manoeuvring, high speeds - that's what counts and what the P-51 is clearly better at than the other two.

[shauncm]

JtD > thanks for taking the time to write all that! i think im starting to see where the difference in flying styles is here.

it seems that both [icefire] and [jtd] fly significantly more horizontal than what whistlinggdeath describes. although you use energy tactics you stay fast. i get the impression that you keep your high yoyo's in a 45 to 60 degree plane of motion, whilst whistlinggdeath makes me think of vertical hammerhead turns when he talks about apex climbs.

icefire and jtd, you seem to fly team versus team.
whistlinggdeath, you seem to duel more.

if you know that there is only one enemy about you can afford to win the fight by holding in the vertical until the last possible moment. on a server with imperfect situational awareness this is risky.

apex climbs and hammerheads seem to be about the worst possible thing to do with an engine. your really slow for a very long time, whilst using high power levels. in a way you are stall fighting. the spitty needed very big radiators to be able to do that.

i also get the impression that you are working different height bands. the air at 20000 feet is 40 degrees celsius colder than at ground level. from what i have read IL2 models outside air temperature effects.

since 4.11 every plane is a little bit slower. there is a greater difference between peak speed and max sustained speed. from playing about offline it seems like both the tempest and spit25 are about 30 to 40 kph slower. speed is life, height is life-insurance but temperature is offensive capability.

i remember a quote;
"The engine is overheating, and so am I. Either we stand down or blow up"
i think that was from a bunch of p51's sitting on the runway waiting to take off. if the p51 overheated at idle on the runway, a power-on minimum speed apex turn is going to get hot real quick.

in a fair match any of you guys could beat me. i win online because im sneaky. i either use stealth or fool people into thinking i pose less of a threat than i actually do. i consider you all far more knowledgeable about the p51 than i am. my personal interest in this thread is because i think il2 is an incredible simulator and i want to see it keep developing. there are some modern 'simulators' that still cant model stalls, spins and sideslips properly.

i guess the questions are;
what changes are we asking for?
what suggestions do we have for the developers with regard to engine temperature?