ATAG's 1st Bomber Night this Weekend

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by CWMV

So youll make it a no win scenario regardless, nice!

"All should be balanced as long as Red wins."

And your talk of FM's guess what Chuck-the 109 is substantially undermodeled as well, but there is much info regarding that here weather you wish to see it or not.

And my arguemt against the Spit II still stands: The Spit II did not, in any way, shape, or from have the utter and total performance advantage in EVERY single aspect over the 109 as it does in this game. Therefore to be accurate it needs to be out. The rest of the planes are all cut off at the knees, but its rather proportonal to their real world performance in that the spits and hurris hold the same advantage over the 109 that they did in reality, and vice versa.
Not perfect, but closer than the spit II!

But many have said that a dozen times already. If you dont understand that by now its because you dont want to.

I really don't understand your attitude.

If you think it is unballanced then don't take part. Or better yet set up a server and create your own missions the way you want it. Do it right and the community will say thankyou.

The guys from ATAG have been extremely generous with their time, effort and resources creating this event. They have created a limited plane set and stated the reasons behind the choices.

Why get so aggressive? It's like you think that they have a Red bias. From my experience flying on the server a lot of people with ATAG_ infront of their callsign actually fly Blue by preference.

There are technical limitations that they HAVE to take into account to get this event to work, there are also game play issues that they get to choose. Thats part of their job as mission developers.

I hope this is not just a once off event. I'm sure if there are balance issues with the event they will take that into account when they do it again next time.


Thanks for the effort ATAG Team! I'll try to drop in over the weekend.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I really don't understand your attitude.

If you think it is unballanced then don't take part. Or better yet set up a server and create your own missions the way you want it. Do it right and the community will say thankyou.

The guys from ATAG have been extremely generous with their time, effort and resources creating this event. They have created a limited plane set and stated the reasons behind the choices.

Why get so aggressive? It's like you think that they have a Red bias. From my experience flying on the server a lot of people with ATAG_ infront of their callsign actually fly Blue by preference.

There are technical limitations that they HAVE to take into account to get this event to work, there are also game play issues that they get to choose. Thats part of their job as mission developers.

I hope this is not just a once off event. I'm sure if there are balance issues with the event they will take that into account when they do it again next time.


Thanks for the effort ATAG Team! I'll try to drop in over the weekend.

Thanks Tiger. I'll see you there

[bw_wolverine]

In response to the difference between putting 35 AI ju88s up and putting player flown JU88s, I believe the game has to handle a lot more information when you've got a player flown plane. All those temperature, pitch, fuel mixture ratings, etc etc. I don't think they all get tracked completely with AI. Then you've got to remember these are twin engined planes, so double all that info for every bomber.

I'm not sure why the 110s don't seem to be as much of an issue. There could be issues with the code for the bombers, or for those particular engines.

Hopefully this isn't a serious enough issue that it won't be resolved by the graphics update and we can start to include lots of player flown bombers from both sides in campaigns like this.

Considering how the campaign went earlier on Sundays with all the launcher crashes for players on both sides just as battle was joined, ATAG taking a lot of trouble to try and minimize the crashes is very appreciated.

As for the plane set complaints: I can't understand how little people seem to believe in the power of SITUATION over LIMITATION. Yes, your aircraft may have limits, but holy crap it's 90% about how you position yourself before you encounter the enemy. I just flew tonight completely in a Spitfire I on the NORMAL ATAG server with E4s and E3s galore. How did I do? 3+ kills, no deaths, and one forced landing in France (a nice easy landing at a French airfield after my engine got shot up - even managed a 3 point touch down with no bounce).

I see absolutely nothing about the plane set being offered for Saturday that is going to make the session no fun. It will be fun. There will be fun had. You just have to want to have it and not get all bent out of shape that it's not this that or the other.

The only time I've ever felt that I was killed without a chance in the game is when I get teamed up on by a good working wing pair and that has nothing to do with which plane they're flying at the time - it's about how they approach the situation. Maybe some of those guys in squadrons might surprise themselves by flying the G.50s with the same attitude.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

How many Ju-88s were tested? Was it a server wide crash, or just causing disconnects? This is huge in the development of this game, albeit one that no one has been able to properly test before, and should be put down into the bug report threads. Devs need a look at this before moving on to the next game.

@BWW - doesn't your experience fly in the face of all the reasons we've been given to having the IIa reintroduced? I'm sure you are mistaken about not dying, it couldn't have happened that way in the old planeset!

I agree that if the bomber thing is causing crashes that it needs to be dealt with. I'm hopeful that it will. I've seen the server running this bomber mini campaign thing that ATAG is offering this weekend up over the last week, so I do know that they've been testing it extensively though just from seeing it online and passworded. Since I haven't done any testing myself, I'll defer to Bliss's and Watchman's experience with testing it. What timeframe the Devs need to use to fix it, I'll leave to them - but yes, it should be fixed.

As for the IIa comments, I don't think that it flies in the face of it. Not everyone flies situationally. Plenty of people just get a little bit of altitude and then fly straight for whatever they can find. A IIa isn't going to help them much if they're going against a relatively competent pilot in any plane.

For me the argument about including IIa's on the server is moot. I really don't care if they're there or not. I've never found a IIa to be the wonder drug some people say it is. I've had some success with it, sure, but I've also had some dismal failures in it when meeting well organized 109 pilots who play to their plane's strength.

If people are saying the Spit IIa is required to 'even up the score' against dominating E4s and E3s, I don't really agree. What is really needed is good tactics on the side of the Reds to match the largely disciplined and coordinated Blues.

The last couple of nights, I've had the pleasure of flying with some great wingmen. =AN=Felipe has been absolutely top quality as a wingman and we've done very well together. I had an incredibly satisfying flight with Snapper as a wingman (we played a low high on a 109 - he baited the 109 into a fight and started to climb when I was in position. Before the 109 could finish closing on him in the climb I pasted him across the cockpit and wing surface with a deflection shot that knocked him right out of the fight +1.0 kill in about a 1 second burst of guns). We were in Hurricane Rotols. We basically did the same thing a little while later but keeping each other at wide 9/ wide 3. He watched my 6, I watched his. 109 came up after him and we turned in towards each other. I came in on a wider circle and picked up the 109 right on his tail. Chalk up another. Again, Hurricanes.

Now, I don't fly with the server messages on, so I don't know when I kill pilots, I don't know when my gear hose is damaged, I don't know what type of plane I've shot down. I suggest everyone who complains about the type of planesets being offered play the same way! There's nothing to be gained by keeping track of what type of plane you've shot at. If I hit a 109, I hit a 109. I have no clue whether or not it's a 1 2 3 or 4 and that's how it should be. You Blues should play it the same way. If you get it by a Spit, you shouldn't be bothered about whether it was a I, Ia or IIa. You got hit.

Like I said, I think 90% of the time, there's something you could have done situationally to prevent that result from occuring. The other 10% of the time you probably weren't in a position to engage in the first place and should have run for it, whether it was a I, Ia, or IIa. I know we all think we're hot stuff in the pit, but I think in many cases for Blues AND for Reds we will engage in a fight because deep down we feel we have the superior aircraft (whether it's an E3/4 or a Spit IIa) and should win the fight regardless of the initial circumstances of the engagement when really the fight was over before it started.

Anyway, I'm getting really long winded about it. Deep down what I want to make all of this say is forget about the stats and aircraft efficiencies and climb rate this, roll rate that and just fly! Sure, learn the strengths of your aircraft. Learn the strengths of the other aircraft, but accept them and understand that they're not the whole story! They're not even half the story. Those things will matter in so few of your combat encounters as long as you take the time to prepare your situation. Think of your combat stance as a recipe. You take some altitude, add some speed, sprinkle in some good eyes for scanning for targets, add sufficient fuel and ammo to flavour, pair with a dedicated wingman and serve! If you do that, you're going to find that it doesn't matter what plane your enemy is flying (or you for that matter).

So don't pass on the ATAG bomber night thing because you feel that the planeset isn't advantageous, or is unfair to blue or to red or whatever. Your story is yours to make. Make it a good one. Besides, a plane that doesn't take off is one that's already shot down.

[Friedric]

@Administrator
Hi,
Why is my post removed ? i did not insult any one
I just stated that the G.50 is a flying coffin thats it,I just say wat i think of the G.50 not more not less.
I wil take part in this mission weekend , Sure the ATAG guys are mix of nationalities and fly blue and red so no discussion there of fanboy stuf
I have been there on the ATAG_Server and teamspeak and had alot of fun with the guys there, they teach me how to navigate, how to set the autopilot in the BF110 and H111 etc....

I wil be there , and hope some wil leave the red/blue discusion of IL2 at home and just enjoy the Sim we have now and the efford that the ATAG_Dudes put in there server and missions.

Cheers

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi

Assuming that everything is split 50/50 like Bliss appears to want, there will be 15 109s and 35 other planes on the Luftwaffe side. That's against 50 Hurris and Spits. The slaughter will not be the 109s shooting down the RAF, the slaughter will be the overabundance of RAF fighters shooting down all the bombers before they even reach their target areas.

I love ground-pounding in 110s, Stukas, and 88s. But there is no way I'll fly in a bomber on a suicide run because there aren't enough friendly fighters to protect me from getting shot down. I get shot down because the escorts get defeated and my gunners don't get the enemy before they get me? Fine. I get shot down because the enemy fighters outnumber friendly escorts 3:1 through a mission design decision? Not fine. Nor is it historical. Nor is it balanced. Nor is it fun.

You're already shot down before you've started your engines, then.

It's a game. You don't KNOW that's what will happen. That's the beauty of this! Nothing is pre-determined. There's no guarantee that the RAF fighters will even FIND the enemy planes let alone shoot them down. So plan a route that you think will fool them. Fly low, fly high, fly zig-zags. If you get shot down just as you say, then be the first to come on here and say 'see? see? I told you so!'

But to dismiss the event before it's been run and before giving it a shot is disappointing. What the heck do you THINK I'm going to be trying to do in my Spitfire I? Waving at you from my open cockpit? You're going to get shot at! Whether it's by one plane or twenty, whether you have 1 escort 109 or 20. You're going to get shot at.

You suggest that if you are encountered by the enemy that it's over. What's that? 6 Hurricanes coming at us? Better wave the white flag. So? Organize to fly with 11 other JU87s. Fly close formation and let those rear gunners tear up the Hurricanes who stupidly attack you flying straight and level from the rear.

There are so many variables here that the plane set is the least of your worries. Instead of pointing out all the disadvantages your side will have, find the advantages.

1. There's no predetermined route. You plan the attack vector. That's a LOT of territory for the RAF to cover. And you know how hard it is to spot targets sometimes.

2. You've got rear gunners in two of those planes. A few pilots flying in a good formation will throw a lot of lead at a plane attacking from behind.

3. The RAF planes are 2 speed props. Many of the more inexperienced pilots will over-rev their engines and put themselves out of a fight in some of the manoevers that are VERY simple for a JU87 or 110 pilot to make.

I could keep trying to think of some, but it's very late.

Just give it a go. If it's not fun, you can quit. It's a game.

[jimbop]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I really don't understand your attitude....Thanks for the effort ATAG Team! I'll try to drop in over the weekend.

+1, good post. With some of these responses I don't know why you bother, ATAG_Bliss, but I'm glad you do. Will drop by.