109 e4 performance

Perhaps selling issues. Sounds nicer to have a spec at 500 +/-25 kmh than 485 +/-10kmh.

The thing is there seems to be no test on the E series that indicates that there had effectively 109s that reached speeds above 500 kmh.

[Crumpp]

The manufacturer's specification of 500 kmh +/-25kmh does definitely not mean that the 109 reached 500 kmh but probably something less.

It is an average. There is no "probably something less" or "selling issues". No pointy tin-foil required. This is standard stuff in aviation.

The thing is there seems to be no test on the E series that indicates that there had effectively 109s that reached speeds above 500 kmh.

Of course there are flight test's that show that average performance....

Here:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Of course there are flight test's that show that average performance....

Here:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

That is the Yugoslavian test we've had here few pages back. There is no mention of the aircraft actualy achieving 500km/h, at least I can not see it anywhere.

[Crumpp]

That is the Yugoslavian test

It is German test but is reprinted in a Yugoslavian report. Of course it is, the Yugoslavian's purchased Bf-109E's...

The Yugoslavian report is used to date the German one.

Reproduction of pages 48 - 53 from Baubeschreibung für das Flugzeugmuster Messerschmitt Me 109 mit DB 601, from circa 1939. The date cannot be positively identified, however, the Yugoslavian translation of the manual, probably shipped along with the Yugoslavian export Bf 109Es, and which is otherwise identical to the German, is dated 1940.

There is no mention of the aircraft actualy achieving 500km/h, at least I can not see it anywhere.

Sure there is:

Die Flugdauer bei Vollgasflug beträgt 1,1 h in 6000 m.
Bei entsprechender Drosselung erhöht sich die Flugzeit bis
auf zwei Stunden.

They flew at full power for 1.1hours, to altitudes of 6000m, and the total flight lasted 2 hours.

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

[Crumpp]

Ok, we can ballpark the vicinity of the speeds we should be seeing at each of the settings by using the basic math relationships of power required to power available. Most of you won't know what I am talking about but it works.

For these ratings:

2) Startleistung 1175 PS in 0 m Höhe = 500kph
(zulässige Dauer 1 Min.)
bei 2500 U/Min.

3) Bodenleistung 1015 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~474kph
Kurzleistung (5 Min. Dauer)
bei 2400 U/Min.

Erhöhte Dauerleistung 950 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~465 kph
(zulässige Dauer 30 Min.)
bei 2300 U/Min.

Dauerleistung 860 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~449 kph
bei 2200 U/Min.

That is based on Mtt's contractual performance with the RLM and of course has a +/- 5% and assumes the radiator is in the same position as the 1 minute rating. This is a quick ballpark and it can be refined.

[CaptainDoggles]

For those not familiar with the math:

http://mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/t...es/node97.html

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That is based on Mtt's contractual performance with the RLM and of course has a +/- 5% and assumes the radiator is in the same position as the 1 minute rating. This is a quick ballpark and it can be refined.

Thanks very much. I put it into the table posted earier. Only difference (probably typo) was the PS for Bodenleistung. What is the position of the radiator? What would the values for A-1 be? What would the drag penalty for E-4 Haube be and what would the drag penalty for bombrack be, if you happen to know?

DB 601 Aa / 9-9518E

1.45 ata 2500RPM 1175HP (1 minute) - 500km/h
1.35 ata 2400RPM 1045HP (5 minutes) - 474km/h
1.15 ata 2300RPM 950HP (30 minutes) - 465km/h

[Crumpp]

I speak German but I honestly can't see this test confirming the Vmax values stated in the manufacturer's brochure.

What else are you looking for?? I mean seriously, your whole premise is that Mtt is lying and will get paid for thousands of aircraft despite that presumption.

Does that really make any sense?

[bugmenot]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Ok, we can ballpark the vicinity of the speeds we should be seeing at each of the settings by using the basic math relationships of power required to power available. Most of you won't know what I am talking about but it works.

For these ratings:

2) Startleistung 1175 PS in 0 m Höhe = 500kph
(zulässige Dauer 1 Min.)
bei 2500 U/Min.

3) Bodenleistung 1015 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~474kph
Kurzleistung (5 Min. Dauer)
bei 2400 U/Min.

Erhöhte Dauerleistung 950 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~465 kph
(zulässige Dauer 30 Min.)
bei 2300 U/Min.

Dauerleistung 860 PS in 0 m Höhe = ~449 kph
bei 2200 U/Min.

That is based on Mtt's contractual performance with the RLM and of course has a +/- 5% and assumes the radiator is in the same position as the 1 minute rating. This is a quick ballpark and it can be refined.

There's typo in the Baubeschreibung: M o t o r l e i s t u n g
http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

should be 1045 PS in 0 m Kurzleistung (5 Min. Dauer)
bei 2400 U/Min.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by bugmenot

There's typo in the Baubeschreibung: M o t o r l e i s t u n g

I pointed out that typo already and it has been already corrected in the chart I am putting together, bugmenot.