The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by MB_Avro_UK

Democratic soldiers are not fanatics.

How do Spartans fit into this theory? :p

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

How do Spartans fit into this theory? :p

Sparta was an Oligarchy.

Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.

Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. Throughout history, most oligarchies have been tyrannical, relying on public servitude to exist, although others have been relatively benign.

[Al Schlageter]

The Führer and Supreme Commander
of the Armed Forces


Führer Headquarters,
16th July 1940.
7 copies

Directive No. 16 On preparations for a landing operation against England

Since England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England and, if necessary, to carry it out.

The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely.

I therefore order as follows :

1. The landing will be in the form of a surprise crossing on a wide front from about Ramsgate to the area west of the Isle of Wight. Units of the Air Force will act as artillery, and units of the Navy as engineers.

The possible advantages of limited operations before the general crossing (e.g. the occupation of the Isle of Wight or of the county of Cornwall) are to be considered from the point of view of each branch of the Armed Forces and the results reported to me. I reserve the decision to myself.

Preparations for the entire operation must be completed by the middle of August.

2. These preparations must also create such conditions as will make a landing in England possible, viz:

(a) The English Air Force must be so reduced morally and physically that it is unable to deliver any significant attack against the German crossing.

(b) Mine-free channels must be cleared.

(c) The Straits of Dover must be closely sealed off with minefields on both flanks; also the Western entrance to the Channel approximately on the line Alderney-Poitland.

(d) Strong forces of coastal artillery must command and protect the forward coastal area.

(e) It is desirable that the English Navy be tied down shortly before the crossing, both in the North Sea and in the Mediterranean (by the Italians)1. For this purpose we must attempt even now to damage English home-based naval forces by air and torpedo attack as far as possible.

Stern, 2.a was not even close to being met and you still want to call it a draw.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

...
(a) The English Air Force must be so reduced morally and physically that it is unable to deliver any significant attack against the German crossing.
...

Stern, 2.a was not even close to being met and you still want to call it a draw.

Hmm.. in this case, you need to re-read the memories of the WWII british fighter pilots, which were brought on (or even over) the very edge of mental and physical collapse at that time..

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by adonys

Hmm.. in this case, you need to re-read the memories of the WWII british fighter pilots, which were brought on (or even over) the very edge of mental and physical collapse at that time..

Yet they still kept flying and fighting, so not even close to your statement.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

Stern, 2.a was not even close to being met and you still want to call it a draw.

whatever the plan was, it was suspended for other matters. At the time of the suspension of major aerial operation over the Channel the RAF was at the brink of collapse, the Luftwaffe could have won the war of attrition, had they persevered.

Let's give you an example: you're playing football with your friends, at some point the other team needs to leave because more urgent matters require their presence, and so far the score is a draw, but you've been struggling and you know that if they didn't have to leave you might have lost that game. I would understand your enthusiasm for having got away with it, but would you really consider that a victory, or one to celebrate anyway?

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

whatever the plan was, it was suspended for other matters. At the time of the suspension of major aerial operation over the Channel the RAF was at the brink of collapse, the Luftwaffe could have won the war of attrition, had they persevered.

Let's give you an example: you're playing football with your friends, at some point the other team needs to leave because more urgent matters require their presence, and so far the score is a draw, but you've been struggling and you know that if they didn't have to leave you might have lost that game. I would understand your enthusiasm for having got away with it, but would you really consider that a victory, or one to celebrate anyway?

Sure Stern, what ever you say. The Lw abandoned the daylight phase which was to defeat the RAF and switched to night terror attacks on civilians.

As for the war of attrition, the number of Spitfires and Hurricanes increased during the daylight phase of the battle while the Lw's numbers continually declined from the numbers at the start of the battle in July.

13 Aug 40
Strength Summary
Number Type Strength/Svcble
42 1/3 Kampfgruppen 1482/ 1008
9 Stukagruppen 365/286
1 Schlachtgruppe 39/31
26 Jagdgruppen 976/853
9 Zerstrergruppen 244/189
3 Nachtjagdgruppen 91/59
14 Seefliegerstaffeln 240/125

7 Sept 1940
Strength Summary
Number Type Strength/Svcble
43 Kampfgruppen 1291/ 798 > -191/-210
4 Stukagruppen 174/133 > -191/-153
2 Schlachtgruppe 59/44 > +20/+13
27 Jagdgruppen 831/658 > -145/-199
8 Zerstörergruppen 206/112 > -38/-77
18 Fernaufklärungsstaffeln 191/123
6 Seefliegerstaffeln 52/33

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

(a) The English Air Force must be so reduced morally and physically that it is unable to deliver any significant attack against the German crossing.

Originally Posted by adonys

Hmm.. in this case, you need to re-read the memories of the WWII british fighter pilots, which were brought on (or even over) the very edge of mental and physical collapse at that time..

You think that because some British pilots have said they were on the edge of collapse, that the objective 2a had been met? Of course not, don't be silly.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

whatever the plan was, it was suspended for other matters. At the time of the suspension of major aerial operation over the Channel the RAF was at the brink of collapse, the Luftwaffe could have won the war of attrition, had they persevered.

Firstly, you're saying that in different circumstances the Luftwaffe could have won - so what, they didn't, which is all we're arguing about. Secondly, you are very out of date thinking that the RAF was close to collapse (not that it would help your arguement even if it was true).

Let's give you an example: you're playing football with your friends, at some point the other team needs to leave because more urgent matters require their presence, and so far the score is a draw, but you've been struggling and you know that if they didn't have to leave you might have lost that game.

That's some weird comparison right there, but I'll go with it. If it's footy, we're really talking Champions league here, not you and some mates. Can you imagine a situation where Bayern Munich are playing Manchester Utd and half way through the game Bayern say sorry, they want to see the end of Germany's got talent? The suggestion that Germany made up the plans in the morning, started and then decided a few weeks later that they really ought to get back to the important stuff is madness. It was a planned attack, with a planned amount of aircraft and personnel, and a timeframe. They under-estimated Britain's strength and failed their mission. That they continued fighting elsewhere doesn't suddenly make a defeat a draw. Your arguement that Britain did not gain territory is embarrassing.

[adonys]

Democracy was what it was in ancient Greece, in which everyone's word had the same weight when taking a decision regarding's city's policy.

It is not the case anymore with XX century's "democracies"

I'll give you a single example about what american XX century democracy is: The Gulf of Tonkin incident (the pretext which actually started the Vietnam war).. How is this different than what they officially say Germany did to Poland? In only one aspect.. Germany didn't won..

[robtek]

EVERY soldier is a fanatic when psyched up by propaganda!